Justification from everlasting !

[savedbymercy]

dw

There is not one single text of scripture that teaches the elect were already justified any more than they were already glorified before the world began.

The elect world never had its sins legally Laid to its chagre, that is their Justification before God. 2 Cor 5:19

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



The elect world never had its sins legally Laid to its chagre, that is their Justification before God. 2 Cor 5:19

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Are you so blind and ignorant that you cannot see that this text along with several other texts of like kind refer to what was done ON THE CROSS not in eternity past and in regard to FINAL CONDEMNATION not in regard to INITIAL LEGAL VERDICT!

There can be no savior where there is nothing to be saved from. There can be no justification where there is none condemned. There can be no peace given where there is not war.

You simply have no spiritual ability or common sense to distinguish between eternal purpose and time or what is done in time according to eternal design.

The elect were no more justified in eternity than they were glorified in eternity - Rom. 8:28.

BE CONSISTENT AND TEACH NONE OF THE ELECT WHERE EVER BROUGHT UNDER THE CONDEMNATION OF SIN and suffered aging, sickness, and death but were ETERNALLY GLORIFIED as in the very same context of eternal justification is eternal glorification:

to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Come on! Is not verse 28 referring to "according to his purpose" his eternal counsel and were they not EQUALLY GLORIFIED as they were JUSTIFIED????

You cannot be consistent because your parrot interpretations are CORRUPTIONS OF GOD'S WORD

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Are you so blind and ignorant that you cannot see that this text along with several other texts of like kind refer to what was done ON THE CROSS not in eternity past and in regard to FINAL CONDEMNATION not in regard to INITIAL LEGAL VERDICT!

God legally charged Christ with the sins of the Elect when ZHe became their Surety. Heb 7:22

22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

This was before the foundation in the Terms of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20

20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Christ did not actually pay or die for sins of the elect until the cross, but He was charged with their sins in order to die before the world began.

God never charged the elect's sins unto the elect, but unto their Surety, and that before the world began..

 

[Martin Marprelate]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

You are only reading into the text what you want to read into it, not what it says. That is eisigeses.

With respect, I think that is what you are doing. You appear to have come to the conclusion that 'world' (Greek kosmos) in John 3:16 means 'all the people in the world.' You are entitled to do that, but you are not entitled to claim that it is the only possible interpretation.

If we believe what you say then for Christ to say, "For God so loved the world" would be redundant, unnecessary, a useless fact of information. But it isn't.

No, it certainly isn't. God has loved the world that He made in this way; He gave His only begotten Son to redeem a vast number of people out of sin and death. That is why He can say, 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.....' He can say that because He hasn't offered these people salvation to se what they make of it; He has actually redeemed them at the cost of His precious blood.

Why? Because whoever, in that vast world would choose to believe on him and his atoning work, would be saved. That is the message given.

Amen! Here we are in perfect agreement. '......And the one who comes to Me I will by no means turn away.' No one who sincerely trusts in Christ for salvation will ever be rejected. Why? Because they are the ones for whom Christ died, whom the Father decreed for salvation before time began and whom the Holy Spirit has made willing. They love because God first loved them. They choose because God first chose them. 'Salvation is of the LORD' (Jonah 2:9). :godisgood:

The verse does not say: "God loved the elect and gave his son for them that they could have eternal life."
This is your belief. It is not what the Bible teaches.

This is not my belief. You should not make assumptions. As I have indicated above, I believe that 'world' actually means 'world,' as in, Planet Earth*. It may also mean 'both Jew and Gentile' but I would never claim that it means 'the elect.'

*A consideration of Romans 8:18ff may be helpful in this regard.

Steve

 

[DHK]

With respect, I think that is what you are doing. You appear to have come to the conclusion that 'world' (Greek kosmos) in John 3:16 means 'all the people in the world.' You are entitled to do that, but you are not entitled to claim that it is the only possible interpretation.

Yes, that is my conviction. Christ died for all. It is repeated in many other Scriptures; I don't see any reason to deny it here.

No, it certainly isn't. God has loved the world that He made in this way; He gave His only begotten Son to redeem a vast number of people out of sin and death. That is why He can say, 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.....' He can say that because He hasn't offered these people salvation to se what they make of it; He has actually redeemed them at the cost of His precious blood.

He didn't die for just "the redeemed," or just "the chosen ones." He died for all, and thus the meaning of the word "world" is conclusive. There is not one person for whom Christ did not die. "For God demonstrated his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Christ died for sinners. I am no better a sinner than any other person in this world. I am so unworthy of his love. The fact that I responded to his love while others did not does not mean that he loves them any less.

Thus God so loved the world...
Not, God loved the elect.

Amen! Here we are in perfect agreement. '......And the one who comes to Me I will by no means turn away.' No one who sincerely trusts in Christ for salvation will ever be rejected. Why? Because they are the ones for whom Christ died, whom the Father decreed for salvation before time began and whom the Holy Spirit has made willing. They love because God first loved them. They choose because God first chose them. 'Salvation is of the LORD' (Jonah 2:9). :godisgood:

Whoever believes on him He will grant salvation. Why? Because he died for the sins of all the world, for everyone; not just the elect. God so loved the world, not just the elect. The opportunity to believe is granted to all.

This is not my belief. You should not make assumptions. As I have indicated above, I believe that 'world' actually means 'world,' as in, Planet Earth*. It may also mean 'both Jew and Gentile' but I would never claim that it means 'the elect.'

*A consideration of Romans 8:18ff may be helpful in this regard.

You post as if it is your belief.
Christ said he came to seek and to save the lost. He is not a member of the Green Party or of PETA, or of any environmental group. He never subscribed to National Geographic. He did not come to seek and to save the mountains, valleys, rivers, seas and plains--all a part of our "planet."
The planet is irrelevant. It will someday be destroyed with fire, as it was once destroyed with a Flood. If God sent his son do die for a planet then no one--not you or I have any hope in Christ for salvation. The planet is irrelevant.

He came to die for sinners, not the planet. The sinners compose the world that is on the planet. It is our world, the world that we live in. We are to live in the world and yet not be of the world. It is the world that needs Christ. It is the world that he died for--every world of every generation. They all need a Savior, and those are the ones who Christ died for. His grace is sufficient to cover all men's sins. But all men will not come to him because of their depraved and rebellious nature. That grace is efficacious only to those who out of their own free will choose to believe on him. They were not forced to believe. They believed because they heard the Word, and on that basis made a decision. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The planet is irrelevant. It will someday be destroyed with fire, as it was once destroyed with a Flood. If God sent his son do die for a planet then no one--not you or I have any hope in Christ for salvation. The planet is irrelevant.

Boy! This is hard work! Just read John 3:16 again, please. God did not give His only begotten Son to die for the world-whatever you may imagine 'world' to mean. He gave His Son for 'whosoever believes.' That is what the text says very clearly. And that is not all the people in the world qed. Once again, God has loved the world that He made in this way; He gave His only begotten Son to redeem a vast number of people out of sin and death.

Christ said he came to seek and to save the lost.

Exactly so. He did not come to offer people salvation- He came to save. And not one of those for whom He died will fail to come to heaven

'This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up on the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life and I will raise him up at the last day' (John 6:39-40). Can you not see that the 'All He has given Me' and the Everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him' are the same group of people? It is so staringly obvious!

Steve

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



God legally charged Christ with the sins of the Elect when ZHe became their Surety. Heb 7:22

22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

That is true but not in any realistic sense but only in the sense of divine purpose. At the same time we were also GLORIFIED as much as we were JUSTIFIED by that surety (Rom. 8:28-30).

You have no more basis to deny GLORIFICATION of the elect in eternity past as to claim LEGAL JUSTIFICATION in eternity past! Don't you get it? You cannot divorce one from the other and if you claim one you must claim the other. Now please explain to the readers how the elect were already GLORIFIED in eternity past and thus were never subject to decay and death and disease and age at any time???

Man up and face the facts.

 

[DHK]

Boy! This is hard work! Just read John 3:16 again, please.

Will do!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

God did not give His only begotten Son to die for the world-whatever you may imagine 'world' to mean. He gave His Son for 'whosoever believes.' That is what the text says very clearly.

However the text clearly says:
For God so loved the world that...
He "so loved". This is a love that is incomprehensible; an infinite love. He so-loved, showing a degree beyond comparison, and yet a degree that is defined in one action that incomparable by all.
--He so loved the world that
"That" is an adverbial connective that shows the degree--the how much he loved--that he gave his only begotten son. That is how much he loved the world. God loved the world enough that he would sacrifice his only begotten son. What love is this? How incomprehensible, unfathomable, indescribable, unthinkable love is this, that the Creator of the Universe should send His Son to die for wicked criminals as you and me. What love is this!
And not only me; not only you; not only most of the members of BB here; but for the sins of all mankind of the world of every age--that whosoever of all mankind should believe in him should have eternal life.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (2 Corinthians 5:15)

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

And that is not all the people in the world qed. Once again, God has loved the world that He made in this way; He gave His only begotten Son to redeem a vast number of people out of sin and death.

The rest of the Scriptures do indeed point to all the people of the world. "Not for us only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Can't get any clearer than that can you? The rest of Scripture doesn't talk of a vast number of people unless that Scripture is pulled out of context or read with a pre-conceived theology in mind. One without a Calvinistic background would never see the Scriptures that way.

Exactly so. He did not come to offer people salvation- He came to save. And not one of those for whom He died will fail to come to heaven

He came to seek and to save the lost. You just agreed. One example given in the gospels in the rich young ruler in Mark 10. He came running to Jesus wanting to know how to have eternal life. But he went away sad after having a conversation with Jesus. Jesus said to his disciples: "How hardly shall a rich man enter into the kingdom of God." He desired his riches more than he desired Christ. Before that Christ said to the rich young man: "But Jesus, beholding him, loved him, and said; 'This one thing thou must do, Sell that thou hast, give to the poor, take up your cross, and follow me.'" And the man went away sorrowful for he had many riches.
--Jesus looked at him and loved him. Astounding words! He loved him with a love divine! And yet the man perished.

'This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up on the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life and I will raise him up at the last day'

(John 6:39-40). Can you not see that the 'All He has given Me' and the Everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him' are the same group of people? It is so staringly obvious!

Steve

You have rose-colored glasses that you keep looking through. Did the Father not "give" him the rich young ruler? He came to Jesus. But he went away sorrowful. Why? He rejected him of his own free will, choosing his riches over Christ. The Scripture you posted cannot contradict the Scripture I posted. So one of us must be wrong. I believe your interpretation of the above scripture is wrong.
Everyone who hears and believes will have eternal life.
But the same holds true for those who do not believe; they will not have eternal life. God is a just God. Calvinists have a very difficult times reconciling John 3:36 with their system:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
--Either you believe or you do not. There is no middle ground.
Christ died for all, and all must make that decision.

 

[Rippon]

Will do!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

However the text clearly says:
For God so loved the world that...
He "so loved". This is a love that is incomprehensible; an infinite love. He so-loved, showing a degree beyond comparison, and yet a degree that is defined in one action that incomparable by all.
--He so loved the world that
"That" is an adverbial connective that shows the degree--the how much he loved--that he gave his only begotten son. That is how much he loved the world. God loved the world enough that he would sacrifice his only begotten son. What love is this? How incomprehensible, unfathomable, indescribable, unthinkable love is this, that the Creator of the Universe should send His Son to die for wicked criminals as you and me. What love is this!

That's where your KJVism takes you DHK. "For God so loved the world" simply means in this manner or way. The word "so" is not referencing the intensity of the Father's love in John 3:16. Though His love is great that's not the point.

It was in this manner that God the Father evidenced His love --that He gave His one and only Unique Son for the purpose that all who believe in Christ Jesus will not die the second death,but have everlasting life.

That's what it means.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

The rest of the Scriptures do indeed point to all the people of the world. "Not for us only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Christ became the wrath-bearer for not only the Jews --but Gentiles throughout the world. He was the propitiation and the propitiator of the sins of His elect on an international scale. It's not like it was in the old covenant with Israel only.

That's what it means in a nutshell.

Did the Father not "give" him the rich young ruler? He came to Jesus.

No. Where do you get that from the text? The text does not say that the Father gave Christ the rich young ruler.

 

[savedbymercy]

God will not impute inquity !

Rom 4:6-8

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

David understands the blessing of Eternal Justification, for it was he who also wrote Ps 103:17

17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

The iniquities of the Elect of God were laid upon their Surety, their Substitute Isa 53:4-6

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

They were laid on Him, Not on them ! The all Here is His Church !

That word laid is the hebrew word paga`and means:

to cause to light upon or to fall upon. God caused the Iniquities of the Church to fall upon Christ, their Head and Surety.

The NASB All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.


BBE We all went wandering like sheep; going every one of us after his desire; and the Lord put on him the punishment of us all.

Isa has the prophecy in the past tense already !

When did Jehovah do this ?

God the Father laid the sins , the iniquities of the Church upon Christ their Surety, in His Eternal Purpose and Decree Rev 13:8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1:18-20

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

When Christ came into the world to be slain actually, He had already the sins of His People laid to His Charge Heb 10:5-7

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

The Lord Jesus Christ felt the burden of all the Sins of the Elect having been laid upon Him when He prayed this Prayer Lk 22:41-44

41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

However God executed His Decree upon Christ on the Cross, he did not then lay their sins upon Him, that was done already, but now He executed the Full Penalty of their sins upon Him..

Now, during all this, The Iniquities of the Elect were never laid to their charge, for that was not in God's Purpose ! God's Purpose has always been to Lay the guilt , legally to Christ. To have laid their sins to their charge and then from them to Christ charge would admit to a change in God's Purpose, which is Blasphemous to even consider for a second.

 

[DHK]

No. Where do you get that from the text? The text does not say that the Father gave Christ the rich young ruler.

That was my point. But he came to Jesus anyway. All that come to Jesus have the chance to believe. Some do and some do not.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

That is true but not in any realistic sense but only in the sense of divine purpose

God's Purpose is Real to Him, you do not believe that ? It becomes real to us in the succession of time, but thats because we are temporal but God is Eternal ; For what we come to know in the succession and the passage of time, God realized simultaneously in Eternity when He purposed it, don't belittle God to be liken unto His creatures..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



God's Purpose is Real to Him, you do not believe that ? It becomes real to us in the succession of time, but thats because we are temporal but God is Eternal ; For what we come to know in the succession and the passage of time, God realized simultaneously in Eternity when He purposed it, don't belittle God to be liken unto His creatures..

To realize it in His MIND is not the same as MATERIALIZING it by His power! Do you know the difference?

We did not exist in any kind of MATERIALISTIC EXISTENCE before creation but only as a REALISTIC CERTAIN IDEA that will come to pass by God's POWER in time and space.

Hence, we had no "seminal" existence before creation of physical matter and no spiritual existence as children of God before the new creation by new birth.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

To realize it in His MIND is not the same as MATERIALIZING it by His power!

The materializing is for the sake of the Temporal. God's Purpose does not need to materialize in the temporal realm for it to Be actual in His Eternal Perspective, you are still forcing God into a creature as you and I. Thats not good. God's Power works simultaneous with His very thoughts, thats seen in the narrative of creation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The rest of the Scriptures do indeed point to all the people of the world. "Not for us only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Can't get any clearer than that can you?

Well, it's not clear the way you see it, I'm afraid. Our Lord is quite obviously not the propitiation for the sins of every person in the world. There are some people in the world for whose sins God is not propitiated (eg. John 3:36). To say that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of all the people in the world is actually the heresy of universalism.

May I suggest that you read 1John 2:2 in the Greek? You will then observe that certain words have been added to all our translations except the NKJV. Those words, IMO, make it more difficult to understand what the verse actually means.

Steve

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That was my point. But he came to Jesus anyway. All that come to Jesus have the chance to believe. Some do and some do not.

'....And the one who comes to Me I will by no means turn away' (John 6:37).
If the RYR came to the Lord Jesus in all sincerity, how come He turned him away?

Steve

 

[DHK]

'....And the one who comes to Me I will by no means turn away' (John 6:37).
If the RYR came to the Lord Jesus in all sincerity, how come He turned him away?

Steve

"All that the Father giveth to me..."
The Father had nothing to do with it, did he?
The rich young ruler turned away because of a rebellious heart. He loved his riches more than he loved Christ. He turned away voluntarily. No one forced him to turn away. The Father did not refuse him, or refuse to bring him. It was the rich man's choice to cling to his riches. Thus the conclusion that Jesus said it is harder for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[savedbymercy]

Is it just a decree to Justify ?

Some who call themselves believers and upholding the Faith of Christ, so understand Justification as a decree to Justify, meaning they believe God will Justify a sinner in the future, but until such time they are born again and brought to act in faith or believing on Christ, and then by this act of reliance, God will then Justifies them. THATS WORKS. So Justification is made like a reward or payment for ones act of believing. This teaching is not of God, but it opposes the work of Christ. For if God declares a sinner righteous because they believe in Christ, it is faith or believing as an act or obedience of ours, and not the blood and righteousness of Christ which is the cause of our Justification. Yet scripture is clear, that as a Judge, God Justifies us because Christ died for us, or because our sins where imputed to Him; and not because we believed it. For Faith is the evidence of Justification and not the cause of it !

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



The materializing is for the sake of the Temporal. God's Purpose does not need to materialize in the temporal realm for it to Be actual in His Eternal Perspective,

Does not the Spiritual Essence of God exist actually and really outside the temporarl realm? Are you saying that his PURPOSE in DIVINE THOUGHT is equally existent as His own substance and therefore there is a parallel existent world BEFORE creation of a MATERIAL world????

If you don't understand what I am saying, let me say it this way. God really exists as a Spirit Being before creation of the material world. Are you saying that God's purposed THOUGHTS had just as REAL existence EQUAL to the existence of His Spiritual substance and thus God eternally existed in a parallel precreated world of His thoughts??????

Do your thoughts have EQUAL real existence as your material substance? You are saying that God's thoughts have EQUAL real existence as His own subtance and therefore His purposed thoughts were just as real and existent as His own divine substance. Therefore all mankind are as real and eternally existent as God since all mankind were in God's eternal purpose. Hence, we are as eternal as God.

you are still forcing God into a creature as you and I. Thats not good. God's Power works simultaneous with His very thoughts, thats seen in the narrative of creation.

No, you are the one forcing the "in Adam" analogy upon God to its EXTREME paraellelism not I! You are the one demanding that we were "in Christ" BEFORE we were created in Him not I. You are the one demanding that we were "in Adam" BEFORE we were created in Adam because we existed "in Adam" in the purpose of God and therefore we were as much "in Adam" before the foundation of the world in real existence as much as we were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world. You talk about forcing God into a creature mold and you talk about Mormon pre-creation human existence - you are the one not I.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

No, you are the one forcing the "in Adam" analogy upon God to its EXTREME paraellelism not I! You are the one demanding that we were "in Christ" BEFORE we were created in Him not I.

I am not forcing anything, Christ existed before Adam did, And the Elect by the Purpose of God were in Christ before the world began, just as He purposed them to be in Adam at the beginning of the world. Its really that simplistic. Adam was created as a figure of Him to come which was Christ.

Rom 5:14

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Now Christ the actual substance existed before the figure or type.

Adam was created with His wife or bride in Him, because Christ existed already in Heaven with His Bride in Him. Col 1:18

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

I am just presenting the Truth, and you cannot receive it, I wonder why ?

Also, scripture states that at the Head of every man is Christ ! That includes Adam 1 Cor 11:3

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.