• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Kenosis and Hypostasis

Status
Not open for further replies.

Goinheix

New Member
If he didn't have divine attributes he wasn't God. It is his divine attributes that characterize him as God. He is and was divine with all the attributes displayed to prove it.

One of the divine atributes of God is being saint. While Jesus declared being God, the Jew didnt believe him for he have communion with sinners. The Jew had the same problem as you, confusing God with God atributes.

Finally Jesus did carried all our sins on him. At the cross God who is saint could not have comunion with Jesus loaded in sins. And Jesus claimed to God Eloim lama sabactani. The point is ...how is possible that Jesus having God atributes, being saint did carry all our sins? The answer is that Jesus did not have any of the divine atributes.

But...in your position. Jesus in the cross seaced to be saint (actually he seaced by kenosis). If niot having a divine atribute as being saint is enough not to be God...then...in your position...Jesus at the cross seaced to be God.
 

Goinheix

New Member
It may be of some interest to note the position on kenosis taken by Orthodox Christians. Specifically, maybe I can offer something on the classic "hymn of kenosis" in Philippians 2:5-11, and then touch on some of the finer points of Christology as detailed by the great theologian, St. Athanasius. Forgive me if this a bit long, but there's a lot to cover.

Regarding the hymn of kenosis ("He emptied Himself, and took on the form of a servant..."): What does Paul intend by including this here? Is he talking about the Incarnation, about Christ's sufferings, or about something else? Well, to put it into context, if we look back at 1:27, “Only let your manner of life be worthy of the Gospel of Christ…stand in one spirit, one mind…” we can get a clearer picture.

Paul is not arguing about how one is to understand Jesus. What Paul is doing here is saying not who Jesus is, but rather they (the Philippians, and by extension, us) are to have this mind, and then he speaks about the one who was equal to God and emptied Himself.

When you count others better than yourself, have this mind. What he is saying is that human beings have a tendency to assert our equality as a thing to be grasped; but equality is actually emptying yourself; the expression of that is the unity of mind, the sameness of the thinking, the working side-by-side. In summary, the definition of what it is to be equal is in fact to empty oneself as Christ did.

Now, to get a bit more theological, we can still look at this in terms of Christology (although I don't think that's the main purpose of this passage.)

The whole issue centers on Christology:

It isn't so much that Jesus is "God and man"....rather, He is God become man. As God, He wills Himself to be limited as a human being is...rather than being a sign of weakness, this is a sign of great power.

St. Athanasius, struggling against the Arians, writes remarkably on this in his treatise On the Incarnation. Just to paraphrase some of St. Athanasius thoughts on this:

1. The Son is truly divine. Not by participation from the outside, but He is what it is to be God.

2. The Son is the guarantee of the presence of God in His Word. The locus of this is in the Incarnation.

3. St. Athanasius' entire argument (and this is where kenosis comes into play) hinges on the Cross. The Cross is apparent degradation, but Athanasius insists that the more Christ (on the Cross) is mocked, the more He is proclaimed divine. His degradation is actually a manifestation of His glory.

4. God proves His divinity by the works that He does. His death is not the death of another man, but it is the death of God as a man. It is a voluntary death, and by the Word coming into the body, it dies not out of necessity, but voluntarily.

St. Athanasius doesn't develop Christology as many Christians do today; many today tend to see Christology exclusively as a matter of "composition" (word and man, 2 natures, etc...) Athanasius sees the Incarnation not in terms of composition, but of attribution and predication. We know Him to be human by the things He does, and to be God (again) by the things He does.
In other words, to know that Jesus Christ is God become man, we don’t do it by “cataloging” His composition; it is by seeing the things He does – He eats/drinks/sleep; He is human. He heals/forgives/raises the dead; He is God.

Again, in regards to kenosis/self-emptying: By becoming flesh, the flesh has become “proper” to the Son. He appropriates the flesh, and makes it His own, and makes Himself known by it. Thus, all things that belong to the flesh now belong to the Word; but they belong to Him only in respect to that body which is His, not in respect to His divinity.

He is not God and man...He is God become man. What we're doing is applying human properties to a divine subject. So, when the Word becomes flesh, there is no diminution of the status of the Word; the Word doesn’t become less than what He was. He doesn’t become a servant; rather, He takes the form of a servant and transforms it. His taking of it is simultaneous with the transformation into a lordly form. Thus, it is in the form of a servant that He is shown to be Lord of all.

what is saying about kenosis and divine atributes? nothing relevant.
 

Goinheix

New Member
You don't believe this. You believe That Jesus ceased from being God. You play around with words, but it doesn't hide what you really believe. Skandelon gave you plenty of divine attributes that Jesus has. What makes a person a person is having human attributes. If Jesus doesn't have divine attributes, he isn't God. Your position is heresy. (oh, and you can tell the Admins and mods I told you that if you like). You deny the deity of Christ.

Here are the divine attributes of Jesus

You are desieving the brothers. I am teaching that Jesus is God. Do you understand english? Jesus is God. Jesus is God Jesus is God.

Jesus is God and yet had not a single divine atribute.

The fact of Jesus not having divine atributes is clear because you have failed to point out even one. Skandelon is proving that Jesus is God wich is not in dispute; and is showing that God the Son before incarnation and after resurrection had divine atributes. But no one for Jesus during tha Earth time.

I dont denay Jesus deity. Never did. And the administrator are ignoting all your insults.
 

jbh28

Active Member
You are desieving the brothers.
I'm not sure what "desieving" means....
I am teaching that Jesus is God. Do you understand english? Jesus is God. Jesus is God Jesus is God.

Jesus is God and yet had not a single divine atribute.
Then you are a liar. You say Jesus is God, but then you teach that He isn't. Being God is having divine attributes just as being human is having human attributes.
The fact of Jesus not having divine atributes is clear because you have failed to point out even one.
Lie number 2. I just gave you plenty.
Skandelon is proving that Jesus is God wich is not in dispute; and is showing that God the Son before incarnation and after resurrection had divine atributes. But no one for Jesus during tha Earth time.
Scandelon gave you plenty of divine attributes of Jesus.
I dont denay Jesus deity. Never did. And the administrator are ignoting all your insults.
The administrators think you are a false teacher as well. You are denying the deity of Christ by saying that Jesus doesn't have divine attributes. You can say that water isn't wet all day long, but that doesn't make it true.
 

jbh28

Active Member
You know we would stop saying that if you just did. You are repored for misuse of the report a post feature.

I think I'll report him every time he misspells a word. Wait, with a wait time of 60 seconds between reports that would take quite a long time.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
One of the divine atributes of God is being saint. While Jesus declared being God, the Jew didnt believe him for he have communion with sinners. The Jew had the same problem as you, confusing God with God atributes.

Finally Jesus did carried all our sins on him. At the cross God who is saint could not have comunion with Jesus loaded in sins. And Jesus claimed to God Eloim lama sabactani. The point is ...how is possible that Jesus having God atributes, being saint did carry all our sins? The answer is that Jesus did not have any of the divine atributes.

But...in your position. Jesus in the cross seaced to be saint (actually he seaced by kenosis). If niot having a divine atribute as being saint is enough not to be God...then...in your position...Jesus at the cross seaced to be God.

Goinheix - Can I ask you a question? Your posting is really broken English at times and there are a lot of misspellings. Are you from another country and/or is English not your first language? I'm having a really hard time understanding what you are saying.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
If Jesus gives up being a spirit, he gives up being God.
Don't be silly. God, being spirit, came from the glories of heaven, was born of a virgin, and lived on this earth as a man (not a spirit, but a man), fully God, and fully man at the same time.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Jesus was totally man and totaly God. That is out of question. All we agree that Jesus was fully God. Jesus was fully God without divine atributes because being God and having divine atributes are independent.
He was fully God (with all divine attributes) and fully man (able to be tempted like man, be tired, hunger, thirst, etc.). He was both--the God-Man.
No where in the Bible we read that Jesus did chose not to exercise his atributes. To call legions of angels is not a divine atribute. The concept of Jesus having all divine atributes but cvhoosing not to use it is totally false.
If it is not a divine attribute then let me see you call 72,000 angels from heaven (12 legions). That is not a human trait is it; it is a divine attribute. Man cannot do it.

Jesus said, concerning the resurrection,
I lay my life down; I take it up again. No man takes it from me.
He said I am going willingly to the cross. I will rise again from from the dead. I am doing this. I am not being forced to do it. No one takes my life from me. I am going willingly to the cross, and I will, by my own power rise from the dead.
That is what this passage teaches.
--That is divinity, and divine attributes. It is not humanity and human traits. Can you do it?
I can say that Paul, or Peter, or David, or any person in the Bible did have all divine atributes but he choose not to exercise it. That thinking and teaching is very easy and false,
No prophet, disciple or any other person had any divine attribute. Only Jesus did, for only Jesus was and is God. He is God by virtue of his divine attributes. No one else could raise Lazarus from the dead. He had been dead for four days already. Only Jesus could perform such a miracle. No one else could perform such a miracle.
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
It is a common statement: "Jesus was fully God and fully man". That statement or concept is not at all in the Bible. The incarnation of God Son in Jesus is a mistery that have catch christians from the early centuries until today. It is something that make wonder new christians and old theologist. The incarnation is an issue that made possible the origin of many heresies.

Today, we take for godd doctrine the heresy that did survive over all the rest. How we know is an heresy? We dont know; but it is very unprobable that while all others were wrong, our be right. Most probably our position on incarnation had some wrong deitails ot missunderstundings.

I have prepared the harmony of the Gospels, and what I have learn is that Jesus of Nazaret did not have any divine atributes at all. immediatelly, when I say that, christians think I am a Witness. Not, I am not. Jesus was God, but according to Philipians, God the Son did emptied out all of his divine atributes (kenosis) in order to enter the world as man.

That idea is totally ofensive for the most of christians, and insist in declare my position as this and that heresy. Sorry, but it is the Gospels and is Paul.

The replay is the hypostasis. The answer is that God Son became human by hypostasis. And the biblical support is in Hebrew. But the same Bible, the same NT and probably the same author is talking about kenosis. Which one is correct. I shall say that both. But many christians make huge efforts to denay the kenosis and make it means something totally different.

This thread is to disscuss kenosis and hypostasis. Was Jesus fully God? Was Jesus fully man?


GE:

One gets tired of deciding which are the most senseless heresies. But this one ranks among the best.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Goinheix - Can I ask you a question? Your posting is really broken English at times and there are a lot of misspellings. Are you from another country and/or is English not your first language? I'm having a really hard time understanding what you are saying.
Montevideo is in Uruguay so I guess Spanish is his first language. Let's cut him a bit of slack at least for that.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That is a good human thinking, but had not biblical support at all.
Erm...yes it does. Go re-read Phil 2:6-12. I repeat: you are being too binary about this and won't reconcile kenosis and hypostasis as long as you continue to do this. Quit trying to over-define something which has at least an element of divine mystery about it or else you'll end up like the medieval scholastics who speculated about how many angels you could fit on a pinhead and you'll disappear up your own butt!
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Montevideo is in Uruguay so I guess Spanish is his first language. Let's cut him a bit of slack at least for that.

That is why I asked. :) Thanks for the geography lesson! LOL I wasn't sure if that was a real place or not. Very cool!
 

Andy T.

Active Member
I have a question for Goinheix. Sorry if you have addressed this elsewhere, but I haven't seen it addressed yet. Let me grant for a moment that your position is true about Jesus. What are we to do with it? What does it mean in our Christian lives? What other Biblical doctrines does it affect? I'd like to hear from you how your belief affects other things in the Christian life, either in our daily walk or other doctrinal beliefs. What is the end result of your kenosis belief?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
God the Son did emtied himself of all divine atributes and yet continues to be God. Because being or not being God is not conected to the divine atributes.

In few words, Jesus did not have any of the divine atributes. He was not omnipotent, omniscient or had any other supernatural hability, capacity or power that made him any higher that any other man.
Remember on the other thread you admitted Jesus is God.
Then you said, as you do here, that Jesus has no divine attributes.
I then challenged you that if Jesus, as God, has no divine attributes, how do you tell him apart from the Hindu elephant god, Ganesh? Which God is the true God. Both have divine attributes by their respective worshipers? You must be able to define the divine attributes of God in order to set him apart from other gods, from false gods.

You agreed.
Then you asked "what art the divine attributes of Jesus?"
This answer has been supplied for you many times.
Here it is again:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1715430&postcount=80

These are the attributes of God; attributes of Jesus, that he never gave up. He always had these attributes. He was never "empty" of them. They are the ones that declare him to be God far above all other gods. You need to deal with this post.
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have a question for Goinheix. Sorry if you have addressed this elsewhere, but I haven't seen it addressed yet. Let me grant for a moment that your position is true about Jesus. What are we to do with it? What does it mean in our Christian lives? What other Biblical doctrines does it affect? I'd like to hear from you how your belief affects other things in the Christian life, either in our daily walk or other doctrinal beliefs. What is the end result of your kenosis belief?

I'd like to hear the answers to these questions as well. Goinheix has made a lot of noise about affirming this doctrine, but what is the impact on us as believers?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top