Absolutely true - but what if that sanctification is incomplete at death?
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Let's discuss purgatory
- Thread starter Amy.G
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lori4dogs said:
OK. A couple of problems with your eisegesis.
The first is that you didn't bother to read the whole passage. Had you done so, you would have seen in v 22 that Jesus sets up the context for the rest of the passage. It has nothing to do with the Devil. It has to do with hating your brother and the penalty for that.
Second, while ἀντίδικος can mean the Devil, it is also used elsewhere in scripture to refer to human adversaries so it is hardly exclusive to the Devil.
But, in any case, the context of the passage rules out reference to the Devil.
Third, Jesus has already paid the "last penny" on our behalf. In fact, the very last words He uttered from the cross were tetelestai, which literally means, "the debt has been paid".
Where does the Bible say we ever have to "deal with Satan"? The only thing I can find the Bible saying we must do with Satan is to flee from him. Even the archangel Michael didn't "deal with Satan", but left that to the Lord.
What debt do to God do you believe Christ did not satisfy at the cross?
But according to the Bible "by one offering, [Christ] hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
So which is it? Are we perfected by Christ's one offering on the cross? Or are we perfected by expiating our own sins in Purgatory? Personally, I've got to go with the word of God on this one.
How does this "prove" that there is another chance for forgiveness after death?
If he's in Purgatory, then why is he told that he can never leave? What's more, why is he being tormented in flames, which is a description of Hell and the opposite of what Catholics tell us Purgatory is like?
If they're righteous, then why are they in Purgatory?
No need for mercy in Heaven??? I'm sure glad God shows us mercy in Heaven.
Holiness is not something we "complete". It is something that is imputed to us by Christ's atonement. Works will not make you holy. Holiness is the result of new life in Christ, not your works.
Actually, you're assuming. This verse never says anything about Purgatory. Not only that, but your eisegesis of this verse contradicts Hebrews 10:14, which says that Christ has already perfected the born again believer.
I ask you again: why do you believe the perfecting work of Christ is inadequate?
I've always found this argument amusing. Why would Jesus need to point out that He's saying something now, when He's saying it now?
How does a bloody and repentant death make one "ready for admission into Heaven"? That smacks of Mormonism.
What if it is? We're not saved by sanctification, but by justification.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Why isn't his sacrifice sufficient to make me perfect now? I believe now. So, why don't I get my body remaid and have all vestiges of sin removed from my mental paradigms and behaviors now? Why did Paul and I have to struggle with this sinful self even after we believed and were awarded salvation? Why do I have to wait until I die to be free from the presence of sin?
If sanctification is unimportant, as your post implies, why bother with it?
No, I never said that sanctification wasn't important, I said that we're not saved by sanctification.
if one adheres to the doctrine of OSAS, what's really the purpose or need of sanctification?
ICXC NIKA
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And in what way would you say that sanctification is important? What's it for?
One of the signs that one is saved, which, once again, is required for OSAS, is growth in holiness, in the grace and knowledge of Christ, and in Christlike-ness.
This is what we Christians commonly refer to as "sanctification", as opposed to justification, which is the act of salvation, itself.
In other words, we are saved by justification and, once we are saved, the process of sanctification begins. It is a naturally occuring progression, which is the result of justification, not the cause of it.
Honestly, this is Christian doctrine 101 and I find it a little disturbing that so many people here claiming to be Christians don't understand this.
What, exactly, are your pastors doing instead of teaching you these things?
Matt Black said:
See above.
Right, OK, so you're saying that sanctification is 'required'; earlier you said it is about having the mind of Christ. All well and good, but I repeat my question: if sanctification is incomplete at death, what then? How can we have the mind of Christ? And how can we (ontologically) be with Christ for all eternity if we do not yet (ontologically) have His mind?
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Your acceptance before an All Holy God is not based upon the degree of your sanctification. It is based on whether or not you have been declared righteous by an All Holy God.
No, my reading comprehension-challenged friend, I am not saying, nor have I ever said that it is required for salvation.
I said that it follows salvation and is the result of salvation not the cause of it.
And I repeat my answer: so what if it is? We're saved by justification, not sanctification (and, as much as I know I'm going to regret confusing you even further by introducing a new word), our sanctification is made complete at our glorification.
For the umpteenth (and last) time: WE ARE NOT SAVED BY SANCTIFICATION. WE ARE SAVED BY JUSTIFICATION.
Yes, but...what about conformity to the image of His Son?
No reading comprehension problems here; I'm simply referring to what you said:
(emphasis mine)JDF said:
So, are you trying to back-track?
With which I agree 110%. But you've dodged the ontological change issue
No confusion, but I'd like you to unpack that term. What do you understand it to mean? How do you understand it to happen?
Yes, yes, yes, I know. But I'm not talking about salvation. Purgatory isn't about salvation - it's for the already-saved according to Catholic doctrine, remember?
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Why is this difficult to understand? So you agree that your acceptance before an All Holy God only comes from God declaring that person just?
I have already answered your question, but I will answer it again. Since we are speaking of justification, your degree of sanctification plays no part in your acceptance before an All Holy God.
If you put your trust in the work of sanctification and your conformity to Christ as the basis of your righteous standing before God, what you are doing is the same as the Jews of old...seeking to establish a righteousness of your own. It matters not if you say, "but it is righteousness that by grace I am growing into." It is still YOUR righeosness.
The Bible is telling you that you must be justified by Another's rigtheousness, the righteousness of God.
So what's the point of Rom 12:2 (to name but one Scripture that's pertinent to the discussion), then?
ReformedBaptist, don't feed the trolls. He's not interested in what you have to say. He's just here to disrupt the conversation and mock our beliefs.
Don't throw pearls before swine.
Don't throw pearls before swine.
Oh great! I thought personal attacks weren't allowed here? So much for talk about grace!
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
You are not asking me a question. Your question is meant to challenge, which is fine. So you make your point about Romans 12:2. Exegete the passage if you like. But make your point so I have something to respond to.
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