Let's suppose Calvinism is true...then why don't all Christians believe it?

[Jarthur001]

Asking "when" a infinite (timeless) being did anything is bit of a quandary. I don't presume about such things. I simply believe what scripture reveals about God, not what my finite man made constructs say he "must" do in order to remain consistent with that accepted construct.

If you don't know, are you saying that there could be a point when God did not know?

 

[Skandelon]

If you don't know, are you saying that there could be a point when God did not know?

I don't know. Is there a point when he didn't create? Again, this is a guessing game because we are finite creatures. Ants have a better chance understanding us than us understanding God.

 

[Winman]

And God made man. Man sinned...is now has a sin nature. Its really not that hard to follow.

And why does man have a sin nature? Because you believe God cursed man. So who's fault is it that man cannot respond to the gospel? God's by your reasoning, although you will deny it. But many Calvinists have been honest enough to admit this is what they truly do believe.

"God does superintend and direct with regard to every instance of sin. He orders how much sin there shall be, and effectually restrains and prevents all that which he would not have take place. Men are, with respect to this, absolutely under his direction and control."

Dr. Samuel Hopkins (Calvinist)

As least this Calvinist is honest enough to admit what are the logical conclusions of your doctrine.

 

[Rippon]

And why does man have a sin nature? Because you believe God cursed man. So who's fault is it that man cannot respond to the gospel? God's by your reasoning, although you will deny it. But many Calvinists have been honest enough to admit this is what they truly do believe.

It is a biblical fact that each and every person lies under the curse of sin. Do you disagree with this?

People are at fault because they have an inability to respond to the Gospel.Their sin prevents them -- pervasive corruption. Don't you dare lay that at God's doorstep.

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't know.

:thumbsup: Lost for words.

Is there a point when he didn't create?

..aaaw Yes. Creation has a beginning. See Gen 1

Again, this is a guessing game because we are finite creatures.

humm. Well God is not.

Psa 147:5....Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.
Hebrew word for understanding “ayin” as infinite. Infinite means limitless or eternal.

Isa 40…28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable.

“omniscience” The word “omni” is all, and the word “science” is knowledge.

So is it fair to say that God has always known? Or did God not know and later learn something?

***********

Ants have a better chance understanding us than us understanding God.

I'm not asking for full understanding. What does the Bible say? Ants can't read the Bible, but you can. How great is your God?

 

[Cypress]

Rippon,I must not be a people then by your reasoning! I needed to respond because of my sin and subsequently responded to the gospel out of utter gratitude and amazement that Jesus loves me! God's truth is stronger than any lie. All men are free and able to choose. Inability to choose would lay a great many things at Gods feet.

 

[Jarthur001]

And why does man have a sin nature?

Because of the fall of man.

Because you believe God cursed man.

Only because the Bible say it.

So who's fault is it that man cannot respond to the gospel?

man

God's by your reasoning, although you will deny it.

Man sinned. He is guilty. God would have been just to kill man on the spot. He didn't.

"God does superintend and direct with regard to every instance of sin. He orders how much sin there shall be, and effectually restrains and prevents all that which he would not have take place. Men are, with respect to this, absolutely under his direction and control."

But many Calvinists have been honest enough to admit this is what they truly do believe.

Yes...Within the "maze" if you will, God is in full control. Yet man makes a choice from his only desires. Mans will is the problem.

As least this Calvinist is honest enough to admit what are the logical conclusions of your doctrine.

:wavey:

 

[Jarthur001]

Rippon,I must not be a people then by your reasoning! I needed to respond because of my sin and subsequently responded to the gospel out of utter gratitude and amazement that Jesus loves me! God's truth is stronger than any lie. All men are free and able to choose. Inability to choose would lay a great many things at Gods feet.

Why does not all people come to God?????

1 John 4: 19.....We love, because He first loved us.

 

[Skandelon]

Why does not all people come to God?????

1 John 4: 19.....We love, because He first loved us.

Yes.

Notice it DOES NOT SAY, "We have to love, because he first loved us."

 

[pinoybaptist]

It is a biblical fact that each and every person lies under the curse of sin. Do you disagree with this?

People are at fault because they have an inability to respond to the Gospel.Their sin prevents them -- pervasive corruption. Don't you dare lay that at God's doorstep.

Oh, he will lay that at God's doorstep, Rip, trust me.
This guy wants God guilty of everything and man innocent of a lot of things.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes.

Notice it DOES NOT SAY, "We have to love, because he first loved us."

No...I says the REASON why we love, is that he 1st loved us.

and when he LOVES US....
1 Cor 13: 8....Love never fails;

 

[Jarthur001]

also...maybe we should add this again, being that we are on the love of God..

33Who shall bring any charge against God's elect [when it is] God Who justifies [that is, Who puts us in right relation to Himself? Who shall come forward and accuse or impeach those whom God has chosen? Will God, Who acquits us?] 34Who is there to condemn [us]? Will Christ Jesus (the Messiah), Who died, or rather Who was raised from the dead, Who is at the right hand of God actually pleading as He intercedes for us?


MY NOTES HERE>>>
The atonement was a love act by God. John 3:16...For God so loved the world. Tons of passages to back this up. He laid down his life...for his friends. That was the REASON he came. so.....



35Who shall ever separate us from Christ's love? Shall suffering and affliction and tribulation? Or calamity and distress? Or persecution or hunger or destitution or peril or sword?
36Even as it is written, For Thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we are regarded and counted as sheep for the slaughter.H)" class="xref">(H)
37Yet amid all these things we are more than conquerors m]" class="footnote">[m]and gain a surpassing victory through Him Who loved us.
38For I am persuaded beyond doubt (am sure) that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities, nor things n]" class="footnote">[n]impending and threatening nor things to come, nor powers,
39Nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Cypress]

Why does not all people come to God?????

1 John 4: 19.....We love, because He first loved us.

Because all men are different.....some can be persuaded and some not. Pretty simple concept. Paul obeyed Jesus in Acts 26 in order to persuade. Acts 26:17b-18 I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me. Acts 26:28,29 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?" Paul replied "Short time or long- I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains." Tim2: 22-26 Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith,love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the lords servant must not quarrel; instead he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
Absolutely agree with your use of 1 John and said same in my first post

 

[Winman]

It is a biblical fact that each and every person lies under the curse of sin. Do you disagree with this?

People are at fault because they have an inability to respond to the Gospel.Their sin prevents them -- pervasive corruption. Don't you dare lay that at God's doorstep.

I don't know if I do agree with that. Let's look at the curse and see what it says.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

God's curse on Eve dealt with childbirth and most likely motherhood as well. She would also want to rule over her husband, but not be able to.

Adam's curse was on the ground. He would have to work very hard to make a living and earn his bread. Thorns and thistles should spring up.

The only curse on Adam is that he would return to the dust.

Now you tell me, where is any mention of a curse on man's moral nature here? Where does it say man would lose his free will and the ability to choose between good and evil? Where does it say man would be utterly enslaved to a sin nature?

And it's a joke for you to say I blame God for a sin nature, you do. I have always said man has a choice to do both good and evil. I have showed that Cain could have chosen to do good or evil numerous times.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

It is you that teaches that God cursed man's moral nature and made him incapable of choosing for God, even though that is never mentioned once in all of scripture. And if God caused this inability to pass on man, then he is responsible. And I quoted a Calvinist who said so. Here is more from Dr. Samuel Hopkins who was known for "consistent Calvinism".

"God does superintend and direct with regard to every instance of sin. He orders how much sin there shall be, and effectually restrains and prevents all that which he would not have take place. Men are, with respect to this, absolutely under his direction and control." From this he proceeds to show that sin could not have originated in the creature, for why should the will put forth a volition contrary to the divinely constituted nature? Nor can it be in the sin itself, for upon that supposition the effect is its own cause, hence we must look to Him who is the First Cause of everything; speaking of the sinner he says, "Something must have taken place previous to his sin, and in which the sinner had no hand with which his sin was so connected as to render it certain that sin would take place just as it does;" his conclusion is, "Moral evil could not exist unless it were the will of God, and his choice that it should exist rather than not. And from this it is certain that it is wisest and best in his view that sin should exist. And in thus willing what was wisest and best, and foreordaining that it should come to pass, God exercised his wisdom and goodness; and in this view and sense is really the origin and cause of moral evil, as really as he is of the existence of anything that he wills, however inconceivable the mode and manner of the origin and existence of this event may be, and however different from that of any other."

Dr. Hopkins is consistent. If God cursed man so that he could never respond positively to God, then God is indeed responsible for man's sin.

You may not like this, but this was a very common belief among Calvinists in the 19th century.

 

[Cypress]

“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having” (C.S. Lewis).

 

[Robert Snow]

John 3:16 is a good start. Whosoever of the kosmos sounds pretty universal to me.

Wait a minute Webdog. A Calvinist cannot quote John 3:16, they have to say, "For God so loved (some of the world).... And when quoting Matthew 11:28, they have to say, "Come unto me (some of you) who labor and are heavy laden...

Calvinism makes a mockery out of too much of the bible to be true.

 

[Rippon]

Wait a minute Webdog. A Calvinist cannot quote John 3:16, they have to say, "For God so loved (some of the world)....

It was in this manner that God loved the believing ones...

Of course the Lord made them believers in the first place.

And when quoting Matthew 11:28, they have to say, "Come unto me (some of you) who labor and are heavy laden...

I guess you didn't notice that this passage is restrictive. All those who labor and are heavy-laden is speaking of only those who are in that condition.Each and every person is not undergoing the aforementioned labor and experiencing that heavy burden. The passage is saying all of that group. It is not speaking of each and every person -- past,present and future.

Calvinism makes a mockery out of too much of the bible to be true.

And you may have some snow on your roof -- but your wisdom is deficient.

 

[Jarthur001]

Wait a minute Webdog. A Calvinist cannot quote John 3:16, they have to say, "For God so loved (some of the world).... And when quoting Matthew 11:28, they have to say, "Come unto me (some of you) who labor and are heavy laden...

It is clear by all that I'm a Calvinist....
It is also clear by all readers, I quoted John 3: 16...
It is not clear you don't tell the truth about CALVINIST....

Matt 11:28....Come unto me....
Calvinist know of this verse too. They believe that this applies to ALL of man kind, unlike what you just claimed Calvinist believe. Again we do not deny this.

But......WHO COMES?

Romans 3 says....NNE!!!

You see Calvinist take ALL of the Bible into account, not just a few verses that speak of Gods offer.

Calvinism makes a mockery out of too much of the bible to be true.

Humm. If this be true, you need to prove it. So far your own words mock you.

 

[webdog]

You see Calvinist take ALL of the Bible into account, not just a few verses that speak of Gods offer.

That was a good one :laugh:

 

[Winman]

Humm. If this be true, you need to prove it. So far your own words mock you.

Hogwash. Anyone who is not brainwashed by these false doctrines can easily see Calvinism perverts the true meaning of many, many scriptures.

Denying it doesn't change the truth.