Liberty U. and the False Prophet

[1689Dave]

Hello, hello? Are you there?

Well, since you can't (or don't want to) answer a simple question (not a trap, not a trick) about Bible content, I'll answer it for you. What the "sons and daughters" of Joel 2 & Acts 2 were prophesying was "the wonderful works of God" (v. 11).

It seems pretty obvious that these were past works. In other words, they were not foretelling the future, they were forth-telling what God had done and what its significance was. The result was that thousands of people got saved, so the specific "wonderful works of God" that they forth-told was, of course, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Their prophesying was what we call soul-winning or evangelism.

"Note the meaning of the term 'prophesy.' It means to speak in the power of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it may be foretelling the future. Sometimes it may be rebuking sin or telling people how to be saved, but always it will be speaking in the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit" (John R. Rice, Filled With the Spirit, p. 81).

If they were spiritual gifts, they passed away with the Apostles. Who apart from the two outpourings, where the only means of distribution.

 

[John of Japan]

If they were spiritual gifts, they passed away with the Apostles. Who apart from the two outpourings, where the only means of distribution.

So do you believe that prophecy in the sense of evangelism has passed away with the apostles? Or do you perhaps think, in spite of my proof, that prophecy is foretelling, nothing more?

 

[1689Dave]

So do you believe that prophecy in the sense of evangelism has passed away with the apostles? Or do you perhaps think, in spite of my proof, that prophecy is foretelling, nothing more?

We can use the word prophecy differently. But any Prophet today is false.

 

[Jerome]

Ahem...speaking of sketchy Christian filmmaking?

1970s FLASHBACK

Fundamentalist Filmmakers - The Ron Ormond Organization

"In the wake of his family’s escape from the airplane crash...Ron decided to use his filmmaking talents to spread the Word of the Lord. Ron had been introduced to Estus Pirkle...delivering grisly hellfire-and-brimstone sermons, Pirkle was intrigued by the idea of using film"

"the Ormonds delivered...If Footmen Tire You, What Will Horses Do? (1971). A wild vision of what would happen if America were taken over by godless Communists, Footmen used every exploitation shock gimmick ever devised....scenes featured Christians being indoctrinated, tortured, raped, and slaughtered...In one scene, children’s eardrums are punctured with bamboo spears so they cannot hear the word of God. Another scene reveals the Communists’ insidious brainwashing techniques: In an empty lot, elderly churchgoers are forced to sit on folding chairs while loudspeakers drone, 'Communism is good...communism is good...Christianity is stupid...Christianity is stupid...' When one poor lad fails to renounce Jesus, his head is lopped off with a machete."

"The Ormonds made...three pictures for Pirkle. Each of them had a minuscule budget...They were shown in churches, where each screening was immediately followed by an altar call. One of their colleagues estimated that 'a million-plus souls' worldwide had come running to devote their lives to Jesus after viewing the Pirkle-Ormond films."

"After a falling-out with Pirkle, the Ormonds were contacted by Dr. John R. Rice, a fundamentalist Murfreesboro minister who published the religious newspaper The Sword of the Lord. For Rice the Ormonds made The Grim Reaper (1976), a religious horror movie that featured [Ormond's wife] June, in hideous makeup, as the witch of Endor. 'I’ll never forget when we filmed The Grim Reaper down in Mississippi on location...Ron got this big gravel pit and filled it full of old tires and set it on fire. It was unbelievable the effect these burning tires had. It looked like the reincarnation of hell'."

IMDb
The Grim Reaper (1976)
1h | Drama, Horror | 26 December 1976 (USA)
A mother is worried about her husband and her older son. They are no longer going to church, begin communicating with dead spirits and, worst of all, the son wants to become a stock-car racer.
Director: Ron Ormond
Writer: Ron Ormond
Stars: Cecil Scaife, Viola Walden, Tim Ormond
"This picture is dedicated to Soul Winners everywhere and to Dr. John R. Rice"

 

[John of Japan]

We can use the word prophecy differently. But any Prophet today is false.

You are not answering the question, which is based squarely on the Word of God. I am not using "the word prophecy differently," but directly referencing the Word of God.

You are welcome to have your own opinion of what prophecy is, but as long as you didn't get your opinion from the Bible, you are walking on dangerous ground.

It is a common dispensational position to say that all prophecy has passed away. I should know, I teach the subject. But any dispensationalist who says this is not examining the subject of prophecy from the Word of God, but from his or her own theological construct. Prophecy in the sense of foretelling has passed away, because that is adding to the revelation of God. However, we can still prophesy in the Acts 2 sense of telling "the wonderful works of God."

 

[John of Japan]

Ahem...speaking of sketchy Christian filmmaking?

1970s FLASHBACK

Fundamentalist Filmmakers - The Ron Ormond Organization

"In the wake of his family’s escape from the airplane crash...Ron decided to use his filmmaking talents to spread the Word of the Lord. Ron had been introduced to Estus Pirkle...delivering grisly hellfire-and-brimstone sermons, Pirkle was intrigued by the idea of using film"

"the Ormonds delivered...If Footmen Tire You, What Will Horses Do? (1971). A wild vision of what would happen if America were taken over by godless Communists, Footmen used every exploitation shock gimmick ever devised....scenes featured Christians being indoctrinated, tortured, raped, and slaughtered...In one scene, children’s eardrums are punctured with bamboo spears so they cannot hear the word of God. Another scene reveals the Communists’ insidious brainwashing techniques: In an empty lot, elderly churchgoers are forced to sit on folding chairs while loudspeakers drone, 'Communism is good...communism is good...Christianity is stupid...Christianity is stupid...' When one poor lad fails to renounce Jesus, his head is lopped off with a machete."

"The Ormonds made...three pictures for Pirkle. Each of them had a minuscule budget...They were shown in churches, where each screening was immediately followed by an altar call. One of their colleagues estimated that 'a million-plus souls' worldwide had come running to devote their lives to Jesus after viewing the Pirkle-Ormond films."

"After a falling-out with Pirkle, the Ormonds were contacted by Dr. John R. Rice, a fundamentalist Murfreesboro minister who published the religious newspaper The Sword of the Lord. For Rice the Ormonds made The Grim Reaper (1976), a religious horror movie that featured [Ormond's wife] June, in hideous makeup, as the witch of Endor. 'I’ll never forget when we filmed The Grim Reaper down in Mississippi on location...Ron got this big gravel pit and filled it full of old tires and set it on fire. It was unbelievable the effect these burning tires had. It looked like the reincarnation of hell'."

IMDb
The Grim Reaper (1976)
1h | Drama, Horror | 26 December 1976 (USA)
A mother is worried about her husband and her older son. They are no longer going to church, begin communicating with dead spirits and, worst of all, the son wants to become a stock-car racer.
Director: Ron Ormond
Writer: Ron Ormond
Stars: Cecil Scaife, Viola Walden, Tim Ormond
"This picture is dedicated to Soul Winners everywhere and to Dr. John R. Rice"

I remember all of this, and I knew Ron Ormand and Tim. But I fail to see any connection in the slightest with the OP. And it wasn't a "horror film" as IMDB says (what do they know about Christian films?) but a sermon film.

 

[1689Dave]

You are not answering the question, which is based squarely on the Word of God. I am not using "the word prophecy differently," but directly referencing the Word of God.

You are welcome to have your own opinion of what prophecy is, but as long as you didn't get your opinion from the Bible, you are walking on dangerous ground.

It is a common dispensational position to say that all prophecy has passed away. I should know, I teach the subject. But any dispensationalist who says this is not examining the subject of prophecy from the Word of God, but from his or her own theological construct. Prophecy in the sense of foretelling has passed away, because that is adding to the revelation of God. However, we can still prophesy in the Acts 2 sense of telling "the wonderful works of God."

The spiritual gifts expired with the Apostles. They only came through their hands, other than the two outpourings. You need to prove this wrong before trying to prove your point.

 

[JonShaff]

The spiritual gifts expired with the Apostles. They only came through their hands, other than the two outpourings. You need to prove this wrong before trying to prove your point.

So, by your own admission, you do not prophesy nor soul-win/evangelize.

 

[Jerome]

Ahem...speaking of sketchy Christian filmmaking?
.....
"After a falling-out with Pirkle, the Ormonds were contacted by Dr. John R. Rice, a fundamentalist Murfreesboro minister who published the religious newspaper The Sword of the Lord. For Rice the Ormonds made The Grim Reaper (1976), a religious horror movie that featured [Ormond's wife] June, in hideous makeup, as the witch of Endor. 'I’ll never forget when we filmed The Grim Reaper down in Mississippi on location...Ron got this big gravel pit and filled it full of old tires and set it on fire. It was unbelievable the effect these burning tires had. It looked like the reincarnation of hell'."

I remember all of this, and I knew Ron Ormand and Tim....it wasn't a "horror film"

 

[1689Dave]

So, by your own admission, you do not prophesy nor soul-win/evangelize.

Bait and Switch? We're talking about the spiritual gifts being expired.

 

[JonShaff]

Bait ans Switch? We're talking about the spiritual gifts being expired.

Well, do you evangelize/soul-win?

 

[1689Dave]

Well, do you?

No.

 

[JonShaff]

No.

So, you want me (and everyone else for that matter) to take your word for it that the gifts have ceased when you do not do any Gospel Ministry for the Lord?

 

[1689Dave]

So, you want me (and everyone else for that matter) to take your word for it that the gifts have ceased when you do not do any Gospel Ministry for the Lord?

The ministry gifts remain, the prophetic gifts and sign gifts ended.

 

[JonShaff]

The ministry gifts remain, the prophetic gifts and sign gifts ended.

How do you categorize them?

 

[1689Dave]

How do you categorize them?

Paul keeps them separate. The ministry as established continues.

 

[JonShaff]

Paul keeps them separate. The ministry as established continues.

Would you mind listing them out for me?

 

[1689Dave]

Would you mind listing them out for me?

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;” (Ephesians 4:11)


“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.” (1 Corinthians 12:7–11)


“Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside.” (1 Corinthians 13:8)

 

[JonShaff]

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;” (Ephesians 4:11)


“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.” (1 Corinthians 12:7–11)


“Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside.” (1 Corinthians 13:8)

What list is that?

 

[1689Dave]

What list is that?

That provided in the references.