Looking for a good answer

[Zaac]

No almost about it. Zaac indicts God's elect and excuses Sodom.

 

[Don]

Are you just trying to stir the pot? I asked him to show me where it says what he says. He keeps saying that Scripture says one particular sin was the reason. I don't see it and so I asked for clarification.

I haven't condemned anyone. I sought clarification that he didn't give.

Perhaps he has another Scripture in mind because the one in Jude speaks to sexual immorality and perversion. And last I checked that covers more than just the homosexual offense.

So if you've got some insight as to what Yeshua is seeing that says God destroyed Sodom because of just the homosexual offense, please assist in pointing it out to me.

He says :bible CLEARLY stated that their great sin was lusting after strange flesh, for sexual peerversions, and for wanting to have sex with same sex

Okay. Well show me where it says that. There is no mention in any version of the Bible that I have seen where God says He destroyed Sodom because of one particular sin or that HE makes mention of one GREAT sin in Sodom.

Now you're on track. He's obviously relying on the large number of commentaries that agree with the conventional thought that Jude is referring to homosexuality; so address those. Why would all those commentaries look at the word studies and come to the conclusion that homosexuality was what this passage was referring to?

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes. Queers are "filled with all unrighteousness".

That was uncalled for. Call out the sin....sure. But leave out the name calling.

YOU and I are equally unrighteous. The difference being our standing due to our relationship with Christ.

 

[prophet]

That was uncalled for. Call out the sin....sure. But leave out the name calling.

YOU and I are equally unrighteous. The difference being our standing due to our relationship with Christ.

"Queer" is the same word as "strange", is a term that the queers in Chicagoland call themselves by, and is not 'name calling', nor is it designed to be.
When a group of people ask to be identified by one of their sinful practices, then it is not offensive by any stretch to oblige them.

 

[Zaac]

That was uncalled for. Call out the sin....sure. But leave out the name calling.

Sure was. But as you can see it will attempt to be "justified". But we want these people to listen to us.

YOU and I are equally unrighteous. The difference being our standing due to our relationship with Christ.

And it was the lack of righteousness that Scripture points to as the reason for the destruction of Sodom.

 

[saturneptune]

I hope this does not violate the board rules as I am serious about the question, but if so just remove it. As we know today our society is swiftly changing to pro homosexual marriage whether as a personal choice or just the right for anyone else who wants it. It is no longer a stigma to be out with the lifestyle and even supported and encouraged now by our government.

My question is this. When trying to show that it is wrong and should not be allowed because it is bad for society what is your response to the claim it does not hurt anyone else so it should not be illegal as It is two consenting adults doing what they want and no one else's business as it does not hurt anyone else so it shuld be legal?
Other than pointing to, "it is against God," what is your response? I assume that such a response would also apply to multiple husbands or wives at the same time. Do you have a response that does not intregate God into the mix or is this strickly a religious issue?

Yes I do, and most adamantly. If I were lost, the idea of a homosexual relationship would never enter my mind. It is one of those sins that is disgusting, lost or saved. It is not natural, lost or saved. Why stop at a man, why not a sheep? (sign your Valentine Card, I love ewe). Lets get real, for most of us 99% +, it does not take a life changing experience from the grace of God to be disgusted by same sex marriage or relationship.

You asked for an argument against it outside of Scripture, that is it. It is not natural. It is not normal. It does not require salvation to know it is wrong to murder or burn down churches. That is called common sense and human conscience, along with the way we are wired.

Godly sorrow, a salvation experience, it totally different. Salvation and conviction paints a clear picture of the gap between our depraved nature and a Holy God. Do not get me wrong. I am not making light of the sin of homosexuality. But, it is not what tempts most. What tempts most sexually is the attraction to the opposite sex outside marriage or before marriage, which salvation convicts a person is wrong. Different things tempt different people. For example, I cannot for the life of me figure out why people are addicted to gambling, which for those not addicted, I do NOT consider a sin. Why would I waste hard earned money on a game of chance that I know I am going to lose, when I can put it in a 401K for retirement. How stupid is that? What is the temptation?

For others, it may be a great temptation, and require the power of the Holy Spirit to break the chains.

Salvation and the power of Christ takes sin and conviction to the depths of our souls. Christ says hate in ones heart is murder, and looking at a woman in lust is adultery, although I did not commit the physical act.

There is a basic minimum level of behavior that is required of all of us to stay out of prison. That has nothing to do with being saved. I can stay out of jail and be the most self centered, mean, vindictive person on earth, until Christ transforms me.

 

[saturneptune]

Yes. Queers are "filled with all unrighteousness".

I have been here for many years. I gave you the benefit of the doubt at the start and defended you against known trolls. However, your posts are on a downhill swing. If you want a long term experience at BB, I would suggest you change the tone and wording of your thoughts.

 

[prophet]

I have been here for many years. I gave you the benefit of the doubt at the start and defended you against known trolls. However, your posts are on a downhill swing. If you want a long term experience at BB, I would suggest you change the tone and wording of your thoughts.

I do not understand.
I was quoting Romans 1.

Rom 1:26-29
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Those who leave nature, are given up by God, become filled with all unrighteousness.

Is this not what the Scriptures say?

 

[Scarlett O.]

I do not understand.
I was quoting Romans 1.

Is this not what the Scriptures say?

Sure you understand. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

And no, you weren't quoting Romans 1. You were conveniently citing part of it.

Romans 1 is not about homosexuality only. It's about all of sinful humanity that will not yield to the authority of God and it's about all sorts of sins.

The issue that SN has and I have is your use of the word "queer". Yes, there are people on this board who will rush to your defense and use all sorts of hateful words towards homosexuals. They do it all the time. This has nothing to do with political correctness because all of this PC stuff drives me slam crazy.

Maybe where you live the word queer means nothing, but in many places it's a word of hate - like the "n" word. I suppose it depends where you are from.

The word queer in this day and age is a maligning word. And I do believe that "malignity" is in that list of sins you gave.

Homosexuality is an abomination before God and should be taught as such.

Using words that show disdain to the person who is a homosexual doesn't help in that teaching and preaching. It just pushes them away.

 

[saturneptune]

I do not understand.
I was quoting Romans 1.

Rom 1:26-29
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Those who leave nature, are given up by God, become filled with all unrighteousness.

Is this not what the Scriptures say?

I am on your side, and yes, this is what Scriptures say. I am just saying, wording makes a difference here. Terms like queer, faggot, Steve instead of Eve, lead to infractions, and infractions lead to banning. Just do not be drug into a tit for tat pattern of being given an infraction. Trolls are experts at making you angry, and knowing how to stay to the proper side of the "line" not to get infractions.

 

[Zaac]

I do not understand.
I was quoting Romans 1.

Rom 1:26-29
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Those who leave nature, are given up by God, become filled with all unrighteousness.

Is this not what the Scriptures say?

We're gonna leave this alone because the many of us, as well as you, are very well aware of what you were doing.:thumbs:

Saturneptune, it's interesting that you say this:

Yes I do, and most adamantly. If I were lost, the idea of a homosexual relationship would never enter my mind. It is one of those sins that is disgusting, lost or saved. It is not natural, lost or saved. Why stop at a man, why not a sheep? (sign your Valentine Card, I love ewe). Lets get real, for most of us 99% +, it does not take a life changing experience from the grace of God to be disgusted by same sex marriage or relationship.

I was looking up the Scriptural uses of the word perversion yesterday because of the mentioned reference by Yeshua of Sodom in Jude.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. Jude 7

And I thought it interesting that Scripture uses PERVERSION and part of what was going on in Sodom to be akin to what is mentioned in Leviticus.

“‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. Lev. 18:23

Really came to mind when you mentioned the ewe.:laugh:

“‘If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads. Lev. 20:12

 

[Don]

We're gonna leave this alone because the many of us, as well as you, are very well aware of what you were doing.:thumbs:

Saturneptune, it's interesting that you say this:


I was looking up the Scriptural uses of the word perversion yesterday because of the mentioned reference by Yeshua of Sodom in Jude.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. Jude 7

And I thought it interesting that Scripture uses PERVERSION and part of what was going on in Sodom to be akin to what is mentioned in Leviticus.

“‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. Lev. 18:23

Really came to mind when you mentioned the ewe.:laugh:

“‘If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads. Lev. 20:12

Thank you! And now it's back to Yeshua to read what you've written, and if he doesn't agree, explain why.

Of course, it might also help if people start citing their references for their determinations of words (for example, the use of the word "perversion" in Jude; in the 8-10 different bible versions I checked, only the NIV and the Holman Christian used the word "perversion." So what makes that word a better translation than the other 6-8 versions that use "unnatural desire" or "strange flesh"?).

 

[salzer mtn]

Why did the homosexuals take on the name gay and absolutely ruin the meaning of it from what it use to mean years ago. They are infiltrating the tv shows now and they always appear as comedians. This is Satan's craftiness to get these people excepted by everyone. They want to appear harmless to get people's sympathy. When I worked in the prison system there was always from one to three in each unit. When I first started to work I tried to witness to them and read what the bible said about the matter but always they got mad and blowed up in my face. I personally believe they have been given over to a reprobate mind.

 

[Yeshua1]

Now you're on track. He's obviously relying on the large number of commentaries that agree with the conventional thought that Jude is referring to homosexuality; so address those. Why would all those commentaries look at the word studies and come to the conclusion that homosexuality was what this passage was referring to?

the young men and old men wantedto have sodomy and homosexualsex with the 2 male Angels, and were judged for that perversion....

Jude stated that those men lusted and went after starnge flesh, a perversion...

Check conservation commentaries, hebrew/greel lexicons

Just NO WAY to read it any other way!

 

[Yeshua1]

AND speaks to multiple sins. So what is it? The homosexual offense or a number of things?

the SPECIFIC sin that God judge dthose sinners for was for homosexual practice, to commiting sodomy and other perversions!

 

[Zaac]

Why did the homosexuals take on the name gay and absolutely ruin the meaning of it from what it use to mean years ago. They are infiltrating the tv shows now and they always appear as comedians. This is Satan's craftiness to get these people excepted by everyone. They want to appear harmless to get people's sympathy. When I worked in the prison system there was always from one to three in each unit. When I first started to work I tried to witness to them and read what the bible said about the matter but always they got mad and blowed up in my face. I personally believe they have been given over to a reprobate mind.

Is what the gays are doing any different from what has been done with all manners of heterosexual lust and fornication on tv?

 

[Zaac]

the SPEFIC sin that God judge dthose sinners for was for homosexual practice, to commiting sodomy and other perversions!

Where in SCRIPTURE do you see that? I'm not talking about what you want Scripture to say because you think this sin is worse than all others.

But where in God's word does He say that He destroys Sodom and the other cities because of their homosexual practices?

 

[Zaac]

the young men and old men wantedto have sodomy and homosexualsex with the 2 male Angels, and were judged for that perversion....

WHere does Scripture say that's why they were judged? The Scripture you mentioned says sexual immorality and perversion. So what's your angle with making it a particular type of sexual immorality or perversion?

The Genesis account points to there not being any RIGHTEOUS inhabitants. So again, how do YOU jump to laying all the blame on this one sin? There were indeed children in Sodom who were ALSO deemed not righteous. were they committing the homosexual offense too?

Jude stated that those men lusted and went after starnge flesh, a perversion...

Check conservation commentaries, hebrew/greel lexicons

Just NO WAY to read it any other way!

What version of the Bible are you using so that we can actually read what you're reading?

 

[Yeshua1]

WHere does Scripture say that's why they were judged? The Scripture you mentioned says sexual immorality and perversion. So what's your angle with making it a particular type of sexual immorality or perversion?

The Genesis account points to there not being any RIGHTEOUS inhabitants. So again, how do YOU jump to laying all the blame on this one sin? There were indeed children in Sodom who were ALSO deemed not righteous. were they committing the homosexual offense too?



What version of the Bible are you using so that we can actually read what you're reading?

6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,[d] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Jude 1:6-7 Esv

and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

2 peter 2:8

Again, gay practice/behaviour

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Romans 1:26-28 Esv

homosexual peversions again!

God makes a HUGH deal about that particular behaviour, why don't you though?

 

[Zaac]

6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,[d] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Jude 1:6-7 Esv

and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

2 peter 2:8

Again, gay practice/behaviour

It says sexual immorality and unnatural desire. Those cover more than homosexuality. You just seem to have a thing about that one sin.