Lordship Salvation

[RLBosley]

If one were to filter through all the mumbo-jumbo, would it be safe to say that Lordship Salvation basically can be defined as acting like a Christian after salvation?

Pretty much. In the end, Lordship Salvation is simply the affirmation that salvation actually changes you. That you really do become a new creature in Christ and this will be evident in a changed life.

Let me head off the inevitable nonsense that is sure to follow from some: THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE BECOME PERFECT. It does not mean that we never sin again, nor does it mean that we are immediately changed at conversion. LS readily acknowledges that it takes time to grow in grace and holiness. But it does affirm that we must and will grow in grace and holiness.

 

[RLBosley]

RLBosley- Thanks.

Welcome.

 

[Winman]

It's not at all. DHK and Winman do not understand what is mean by Lordship Salvation.

Exactly.

Rolf, check our Theopedia for a brief explanation of LS.

http://www.theopedia.com/Lordship_salvation

I didn't even describe it. Nobody can. I have seen folks asking what Lordship Salvation is all my life, and I have never seen anybody give a real answer.

And you won't either.

Watch and see.

 

[RLBosley]

I didn't even describe it. Nobody can. I have seen folks asking what Lordship Salvation is all my life, and I have never seen anybody give a real answer.

But you argued against it on the first page and post 31.

And you won't either.

Watch and see.

Except I just did. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

But you argued against it on the first page and post 31.

Yes, I believe it is works salvation.

Except I just did. :smilewinkgrin:

No you didn't, and I'll prove it.

How obedient do you have to be to be saved? For example, smoking. Smoking is certainly a sin against the body which is prohibited by the scriptures.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

A person who smokes is continuously sinning against God and obeying the lusts of the flesh.

So, can a smoker be saved?

Just what sins can you commit and be saved? What sins prove you are not saved?

How often can you sin?

See, if you wanted a degree from college, they would tell you you have to complete a certain number of courses and pass certain tests and other requirements. You can know what you have to do to get a college degree.

But nobody can tell you how obedient you have to be to be saved in Lordship Salvation, or how disobedient you have to be to prove you are lost.

If I am incorrect, correct me and give these answers please.

I'll be waiting. :laugh:

 

[jbh28]

But nobody can tell you how obedient you have to be to be saved in Lordship Salvation, or how disobedient you have to be to prove you are lost.

Once again you show you don't know what Lordship Salvation is. Just look up and see a good definition. No one teaches what you have above. No one teaches that you have to have any amount of obedience to be saved.

 

[RLBosley]

Yes, I believe it is works salvation.

And you are wrong.

No you didn't, and I'll prove it.

All you proved is that you don't understand what Lordship Salvation says, and that you ignored what I said.

How obedient do you have to be to be saved? For example, smoking. Smoking is certainly a sin against the body which is prohibited by the scriptures.

LS doesn't say you have to be obedient to be saved. That's a strawman. Please stop misrepresenting the position and actually deal with what is taught. :BangHead:

Also, the sinfulness of smoking is debatable, but that is an entirely different topic.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

A person who smokes is continuously sinning against God and obeying the lusts of the flesh.

So, can a smoker be saved?

Just what sins can you commit and be saved? What sins prove you are not saved?

How often can you sin?

See, if you wanted a degree from college, they would tell you you have to complete a certain number of courses and pass certain tests and other requirements. You can know what you have to do to get a college degree.

But nobody can tell you how obedient you have to be to be saved in Lordship Salvation, or how disobedient you have to be to prove you are lost.

If I am incorrect, correct me and give these answers please.

I'll be waiting. :laugh:

And I'll be waiting for you to honestly deal with the topic at hand... I figure I'm in for a looooong wait.

 

[kyredneck]

....... No one teaches that you have to have any amount of obedience to be saved.

Really now? Check this out:

Originally Posted by The Archangel
.....not being willing to sacrifice all to follow Christ guarantees that you won't be saved. He is either Lord of all or not lord at all......

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2119953#post2119953

 

[Winman]

Once again you show you don't know what Lordship Salvation is. Just look up and see a good definition. No one teaches what you have above. No one teaches that you have to have any amount of obedience to be saved.

It is you then that does not understand Lordship Salvation, Lordship Salvation is founded upon obedience. If you are not obedient, then Jesus is not your Lord.

Go to that page that RLBosly posted. What is the name of John Piper's sermon?

Obedience Confirms Our Standing in God- by John Piper

http://www.theopedia.com/Lordship_salvation

Here's the link, give it a listen, obviously you know nothing about Lordship Salvation. :laugh:

http://www.desiringgod.org/media/audio/1985/19850217.mp3

 

[RLBosley]

It is you then that does not understand Lordship Salvation, Lordship Salvation is founded upon obedience. If you are not obedient, then Jesus is not your Lord.

Go to that page that RLBosly posted. What is the name of John Piper's sermon?

Obedience Confirms Our Standing in God- by John Piper

http://www.theopedia.com/Lordship_salvation

Here's the link, give it a listen, obviously you know nothing about Lordship Salvation. :laugh:

http://www.desiringgod.org/media/audio/1985/19850217.mp3

LOL the irony is amazing. :laugh::laugh:

Anyway... Winman, did YOU listen to the sermon?

 

[Winman]

LOL the irony is amazing. :laugh::laugh:

Anyway... Winman, did YOU listen to the sermon?

I am listening to it right now, even as I type this.

And I can tell you right now he will not tell me how obedient you have to be to be saved, or how disobedient you have to be to prove you are not saved.

He won't give me an answer, and neither will you.

If I am wrong, please answer these questions for me right here on BB. I am sure many others would like to see these answers as well.

Again, I'll be waiting...

 

[DHK]

It's not at all. DHK and Winman do not understand what is mean by Lordship Salvation.

I only speak for myself and not others.
First, Lordship salvation is promoted by Calvinists.
Second, even according to the link given, it is a works based doctrine:

Lordship salvation is the position that receiving Christ involves a turning in the heart from sin and, as a part of faith, a submissive commitment to obey Jesus Christ as Lord. It also maintains that progressive sanctification and perseverance must necessarily follow conversion. Those who hold to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints see this not only as a requirement, but an assured certainty according to the sustaining grace of Christ.

The position that:
1. involves a turning from sin as a part of faith.
2. a submissive commitment to obey Christ as Lord.
3. That progressive sanctification and perseverance must follow.
4. Perseverance of the saints is a requirement.

This is works salvation; not by grace through faith. It is entirely against what the Bible teaches.
When one expounds Eph.2:8-10, we find that in verse 10 it is the believer that is ordained to good works, not the unbeliever. Salvation must come first.

 

[Revmitchell]

I only speak for myself and not others.
First, Lordship salvation is promoted by Calvinists.

This is wrong. It presents this as largely a Calvinist doctrine and that is completely false. In fact most everyone I know holds to it. That covers a broad area of both NM, TX, and Florida.

Second, even according to the link given, it is a works based doctrine:

The position that:
1. involves a turning from sin as a part of faith.
2. a submissive commitment to obey Christ as Lord.
3. That progressive sanctification and perseverance must follow.
4. Perseverance of the saints is a requirement.

That is not works. Works in scripture is a reference to OT law. You misapply the word "works".

 

[DHK]

This is wrong. It presents this as largely a Calvinist doctrine and that is completely false. In fact most everyone I know holds to it. That covers a broad area of both NM, TX, and Florida.

That is not works. Works in scripture is a reference to OT law. You misapply the word "works".

A "work" is anything you "do." And I think you know that.
The RCC has a works-based salvation. They think they are going to heaven because of their good deeds, their works.

The Church of Christ believes that baptism will get them there. Baptism is a work.
A work is anything you do.
There is no reference here to OT law, and I did not make any.

 

[Revmitchell]

A "work" is anything you "do." And I think you know that.

No its not otherwise believing would be a work. You cannot find that definition in scripture and what you will find is that every reference to works is in the context of the OT law.

 

[RLBosley]

I only speak for myself and not others.
First, Lordship salvation is promoted by Calvinists.

Not true at all, but even if it were so, what's your point? Are you on the vitriolically anti-Calvinist side 'round here?

Second, even according to the link given, it is a works based doctrine:

You are mistaken.

The position that:
1. involves a turning from sin as a part of faith.
2. a submissive commitment to obey Christ as Lord.
3. That progressive sanctification and perseverance must follow.
4. Perseverance of the saints is a requirement.

You misquote and misrepresent the source.

1. A turning IN THE HEART from sin. That is repentance. Do you believe that we must repent in order to be saved?

2. Do you believe one can be saved and never submit to Christ? I can be saved yet live my entire life in disobedience? Is that what you believe?

3. So you believe that you can go your entire life claiming to be a Christian, never grow in holiness, and ultimately repudiate the gospel and yet still be saved?

4. You seem to have misunderstood the article here, but regardless do you disagree that a true believer will continue in faith until death?

This is works salvation; not by grace through faith. It is entirely against what the Bible teaches.

No sir, this is exactly what the Bible teaches. It never once says that we must do works in order to be saved.

When one expounds Eph.2:8-10, we find that in verse 10 it is the believer that is ordained to good works, not the unbeliever. Salvation must come first.

Exactly! That is what the LS position states. That believers are ordained to good works - we will do them. As Piper says in the sermon referenced above "there is a necessary connection between knowing Christ and obeying Christ."

 

[Luke2427]

It is taking all the verses that teach discipleship, such as,

"Whosoever forsakes not all that he has cannot be my disciple,"

and trying to make them applicable to the new believer at the time of salvation--something impossible for a new believer to do.

For example, what new believer is going to forsake all that he has and be a foreign missionary (or something similar) as he follows Jesus. Immediate and full sanctification is required without any room for growth.

I'm actually sympathetic to detractors of lordship salvation.

I agree that the new believer should not be expected to be very sanctified upon his conversion or even for quite some time thereafter.

I agree that to demand otherwise is to add to what the Bible requires for salvation.

But, I would challenge the detractors to not swing the pendulum too far in response.

NOBODY should believe that faith without works is alive.

And everybody should agree that the thing one is expected to believe is that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Some proponents of Lordship salvation are simply saying those two things. I am one of them.

 

[RLBosley]

I am listening to it right now, even as I type this.

What were your thoughts on the sermon Winman? I just finished it myself. Anything in it you agree with?

 

[DHK]

You misquote and misrepresent the source.

What have I misquoted. I summarized the first part of it. There is not room for the entire article, obviously.

The position that:
1. involves a turning from sin as a part of faith.
2. a submissive commitment to obey Christ as Lord.
3. That progressive sanctification and perseverance must follow.
4. Perseverance of the saints is a requirement.

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.
--Salvation is said to be by faith. I can give you dozens of Scripture that say that salvation is by faith. But you say it is by works, the above works.

1. A turning IN THE HEART from sin. That is repentance. Do you believe that we must repent in order to be saved?

No, it is by faith. Having said that "repentance" is the flip side of faith. If one puts their faith in Christ, then Christ will become the object of their faith and not the world. They will have a change of mind. Biblical faith includes repentance.

2. Do you believe one can be saved and never submit to Christ? I can be saved yet live my entire life in disobedience? Is that what you believe?

You are asking the wrong questions.
The proper question is: What is salvation?
What is sanctification?
The two are not the same. Salvation is not a process. It takes place at a point in time. I can remember the time and place (when and where) I was saved. At that point, during that minute, my "entire life" was not contained. I am still alive to this day. Your question is simply a red herring.
More germane to Lordship salvation is: do you have to live your life in complete obedience in order to maintain your salvation. The answer seems to be yes. That is a works-based salvation and infers you can lose your salvation.

3. So you believe that you can go your entire life claiming to be a Christian, never grow in holiness, and ultimately repudiate the gospel and yet still be saved?

You are the one making these things up and saying them; not me.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves."
Sanctification follows salvation. I made that perfectly clear from my very first post.

4. You seem to have misunderstood the article here, but regardless do you disagree that all true believer will continue in faith until death?

I believe in eternal security. I believe that the Lord will preserve me. I don't believe I have to do the persevering.

No sir, this is exactly what the Bible teaches. It never once says that we must do works in order to be saved.

The article itself incorporates things one must do in order to be saved.
That is the essence of Lordship salvation. It incorporates discipleship, sanctification and salvation into one big ball. That is error.

 

[Winman]

What were your thoughts on the sermon Winman? I just finished it myself. Anything in it you agree with?

It was alright, he made some good points.

Nevertheless, he did not tell us how obedient you must be to prove you are saved, or how disobedient you must be to prove you are not saved.

I mean, how often do you have to go to church to prove you are saved, three times a week, twice, once? Once a month? Once a year?

What can you watch on TV? Can you go to the movies?

If you drive over the speed limit, does that mean you are not saved?

Life sure gets hard when you believe in Lordship Salvation.