Wow....another helpful post.
All the reformers and puritans held the dumbest views.
If they could have only read the posts of RM
They would have been okay.
Of course RM. Never really gets around to making a clear post.
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Make believe Eschatology
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All the reformers and puritans held the dumbest views.
If they could have only read the posts of RM
They would have been okay.
Of course RM. Never really gets around to making a clear post.
37818
Well-Known Member
Matthew 24:3, ". . . And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? . . ." There is nothing in Jesus' reply where He answered that first question. Jesus only answered that second question. That is why I have said Jesus did not explain when Matthew 24:1-2 would be.
He answered both.He was speaking of the end of the age,not the end of the world.
37818
Well-Known Member
He did not. He said nothing more in Matthew 24 about what He said in Matthew 24:1-2.
Dude...if you do not want to look I cannot help you.
37818
Well-Known Member
I have studied the text. Cite in Matthew 24:4 on where Jesus further speaks about the Temple's destruction.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
First, I appreciate your thoughtful and civil reply, Brother. Where are the "taller", "be from the people", "bum arm" and "blind right eye" verses? Which translation?
Zechariah 11's prophecy of the desolation of Israel was fulfilled in the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem.
Yes, but not the end of the world. Those who look for a future fulfillment of the "end times" prophecies are look for a literal end of the world. Preterists understand that these passages are about the end of the Old Covenant era, which was when the Temple was destroyed.
That is a common, but mistaken, interpretation. That definitely points to Jesus. There were many false prophets in the 1st Century. Actually, we've had false prophets ever since then. However, the Preterist interpretation doesn't fit that definition any more than those who follow the "Fututist" interpretation. False prophets deny key essentials of our faith - Jesus is the Messiah, He died and rose again, He will come again, etc.
Advance could definitely be a mere 40 years. On the other hand, some believe that when Jesus said that "some standing here will not experience death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" (Matthew 16:28) refers to the Mount of Transfiguration, which was only about 8 days later.
I understand your reluctance to "come to the dark side". It wasn't an easy thing for me to change my "end times" views so radically. However, I simply cannot believe these prophecies point to a future worldwide "great tribulation" and antichrist. Fortunately for all of us, our salvation does not depend on which view of the End Times we believe in. Blessings to you.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Why would Jesus change the answer from a near fulfillment (vs. 1-2) to a far future fulfillment? Nothing in the Olivet Discourse even hints that He made such a change. That would only confuse His disciples, and even the idea that He did change the time frame has confused a great many Christians to where they believe in this make believe eschatology.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Until you realize that prophecies are filled with symbolic language, I will continue to debate this topic with you (and other futurists). I can't imagine why that wouldn't work "in the real world". Jesus used metaphors and similes quite frequently. For instance, was He really a door? Is the mustard seed truly the smallest of all seeds? Sorry, Roby, but that dog won't hunt.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
@Iconoclast, I hope you don't mind if I jump in on this. As we know, beginning with verse 4, Jesus speaks of tribulation. In verse 15, He points back to Daniel's prophecy about the abomination of desolation. The AOD was when the Roman Army desecrated the Temple. In His warning, Jesus tells His 1st Century audience that they would see this, which they did. He warned them to flee to the mountains, which they did. Hope that helped.
Most of the symbolisms are pret inventions. We see the LITERAL fulfillments of prophecy right under our noses.
Remember, Jesus is to return IN LIKE MANNER(not "exact") as He left. Obviously, that hasn't yet happened.
I pointed out several events in the Olivet Discourse that were fulfilled literally, and you're just guessing that the yet-unfulfilled portions are symbolic. Again, Jesus didn't switch horses in the middle of the stream, going from literal to symbolic. Remember, He began by prophesying the destruction of the temple, which was, of course, literal, & then His disciples asked Him when those thinga would be, & what else was gonna hallen, so He answered them JUST-AS-LITERALLY. No getting by that big ole bear of a FACT that those events haven't happened yet. Jesus even said, "Let the READER understand" even before His words were written down!
Yes, preterism is false eschatology. I PRAY the HOLY SPIRIT will teach you what's literal & what's symbolic. Right now, you're depending upon MEN to tell you.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24
"This generation" is the very same generation He prophesied against only hours earlier:
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23
Gill:
"...and when he says they should "see" him, his meaning is not, that they should see him at the right hand of God with their bodily eyes, as Stephen did; but that they should, or at least might, see and know by the effects, that he was set down at the right hand of God; as by the pouring forth of the holy Spirit upon his disciples, on the day of pentecost; by the wonderful spread of his Gospel, and the success of it, notwithstanding all the opposition made by them, and others; and particularly, by the vengeance he should take on their nation, city, and temple; and which may be more especially designed in the next clause;
and coming in, the clouds of heaven. So Christ's coming to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, as it is often called the coming of the son of man, is described in this manner, Mt 24:27...."
The jew-idolizing/worshipping of the Dispensationalists is by far "the dumbest of all views"....and there's no lack of warning of their deceptions from scripture:
2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3
Don't think too much of me ... I fail to crucify the flesh all too often ... but thank you, it's Gal 2:20, I promise.
Daniel 7:20 ... the other horn which rises from the 10 ... had eyes and a mouth great boasts (kinda Trump like???)
NASB95 (I shun the 2020 abomination)
"which was larger in appearance than its associates." Blue Letter Bible gives of the word "rab" ... as stout (KJV), master ... as in military rank ...
... well ... I'm blanking on where I read this about this person is from the people who cut off Messiah; eg, Jews or Rome. I encountered one blogger who actually declared the tribe of Dan being the ethnic origin of the person who becomes antichrist. Daniel 9:26 tells about the prince of the people who destroy the city and sanctuary. I understand THIS is the 70AD destruction by the Roman General Titus (actually, I've read accounts where Titus and a group of his men tried to save the sanctuary, but because it was lined with gold, many of his soldiers disregarded him/orders to get the gold ... which is fulfillment of Jesus' own prophesy "not a stone here will be left unturned")
I forgot to note Daniel also describes his character in chapter 11:37 ... disregards religion of his fathers, and apparently is a homosexual? (no regard for the desire of women) ... or is a "ladies man" (object of women's desire?) I tend to favor the former as the forsaking ... and given what's transpired in the last 40 years with a return to the open perversions of the "Roman Orgys" and worse ... further perverting the things of God with a 6 color rainbow rather than the true 7 color rainbow. (Current Israeli foreign minister Lapid; favors a two-state solution (forsaking the promise of God/Lapid's father's Yahweh ... and is an open homosexual ... keep an eye on this dude)
Zechariah 11 describes the person who is the "worthless shepherd." (in the lyric formatting last verse) ...
Woe to the worthless shepherd (anti-Good Shepherd) ... Who leaves the flock. A sword will be on his arm and on his right eye. His arm will be totally withered and his right eye will be blind.
now ... this is TOTALLY of my own concoction, but knowing that antichrist deceives many (even the elect if possible, Jesus said in Matt 24) and that we are ALL selfish by nature, the dude who tickles ears will gain his followers, right?
I have this picture in my noggin of a man who becomes beloved around the world. Taller than his associates, a bit of a braggart, either a homosexual or the object of women's desire. A man who has an injured arm (like Bob Dole's war injury). he's giving a world wide televised address (probably about man made climate change or, now revised for post 2020, perhaps the cv jab!) ... and is assassinated by a gunshot ... to his right eye. Before that body hits the floor, it is inhabited by antichrist (given power to do signs/wonders) ... recovers from the mortal wound described by John in Rev 13.
how does Daniel 9:27 mean Jesus is the one who enters into a firm covenant with many when the passage clearly states in the middle of the week he stops the sacrifice when the account of Jesus' fulfilling Zech 9's entry on the donkey, etc is the first of the week and, of course, the crucifixion at the end of the week ... NOT the middle of the week? Meanwhile in a parallel account, John expounds and tells of antichrist entering the Temple, stopping the sacrifice and declaring himself to be God.
Point is ... I understand antichrist to be a literal person. I understand the "son of perdition" has manifest many many times throughout history in his master's (satan) plan to disrupt God's plan ... all the way back to the garden ... Pharaoh and the Exodus, the overtaking of the 10 northern tribes ... in an effort to prevent the Seed of the woman from being born ... and therefore from crushing his cranium. Satan's last gasp was the temptation of Christ ... and now, for the last nearly 2000 years, he's been pursuing the heirs with Christ; the royal priesthood.
Who is it who was, is not, and will be again in Rev 17? Satan, right? Does not Satan operate with an unholy mimic of God? The unholy trinity which would include the person of antichrist?
I'm not all that and a bag of chips, Lodic. I'm not seeking to demonstrate my knowledge because I recognize I get stuff cross-wired all the time (my inability to reference Daniel for the ethnic origin of the person of antichrist (for the last time)), but only to share what I've come to understand. In the last 4 years, I have departed from the Baptist teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture for the post-trib/pre wrath of The Lamb church rapture ... which ... again ... if the church is yet raptured, where are all those tares right now? Have we had no tares for the last 1950 years?
God's peace to you, Lodic, and to you, reader. the peace which passes understanding.
AMEN!
37818
Well-Known Member
Jesus did nothing of the sort. Bad interpertation of what the text never said.
ref Daniel 9:27
the week Jesus was crucified ... He made several trips in/out of Jerusalem, right? out to Bethany for the night ... each night, I think? But the first entry fulfilling Zech 9 ... on the donkey, with palm leaves ... hence Palm Sunday.
the middle of the week was the event with the woman & her expensive perfume ... Judas' being inhabited by antichrist "son of perdition" ... and the Lord's Supper ... and the betrayal. Then the debauchery of a trial ... culminating with the crucifixion on that Friday. THE sacrifice to end all required sacrifices.
The animal sacrifices were still happening in the Temple as far as I know ... and continued until 70AD.
I have wondered how the sacrifices weren't reinstated back in 1967 when the Israelis (guess we don't call 'em Israelites anymore?) retook Jerusalem. I don't understand how the waqf gained/retained control over Mt. Moriah ... though the DOR was obviously present then, and had been for 1276 years ... other than to stipulate "it was yet time."
The 3rd Temple's construction is immanent. the sacrifices will resume ... no, it won't be atonement for sin, that's already complete, but the animal killing/burning WILL happen. then the sacrifices will be stopped by the dude who authorized their restart.
then for a time, times, and 1/2 a time (Daniel 7:25) ... it'll be on like donkey kong! Then the Overcomers who are ready to receive The Holy Spirit! whew. Rev 12.
the week Jesus was crucified ... He made several trips in/out of Jerusalem, right? out to Bethany for the night ... each night, I think? But the first entry fulfilling Zech 9 ... on the donkey, with palm leaves ... hence Palm Sunday.
the middle of the week was the event with the woman & her expensive perfume ... Judas' being inhabited by antichrist "son of perdition" ... and the Lord's Supper ... and the betrayal. Then the debauchery of a trial ... culminating with the crucifixion on that Friday. THE sacrifice to end all required sacrifices.
The animal sacrifices were still happening in the Temple as far as I know ... and continued until 70AD.
I have wondered how the sacrifices weren't reinstated back in 1967 when the Israelis (guess we don't call 'em Israelites anymore?) retook Jerusalem. I don't understand how the waqf gained/retained control over Mt. Moriah ... though the DOR was obviously present then, and had been for 1276 years ... other than to stipulate "it was yet time."
The 3rd Temple's construction is immanent. the sacrifices will resume ... no, it won't be atonement for sin, that's already complete, but the animal killing/burning WILL happen. then the sacrifices will be stopped by the dude who authorized their restart.
then for a time, times, and 1/2 a time (Daniel 7:25) ... it'll be on like donkey kong! Then the Overcomers who are ready to receive The Holy Spirit! whew. Rev 12.
37818
Well-Known Member
Bad interpertation. It is like arguing the Aposlte Paul wrote that he would see it in 1 Corinthians 15:52, ". . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. . . ."
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Why get out of town when things developed if it was for people 1000+ years later? When did the situation ever develop that was worse than the siege of Jerusalem according to Josephus? When was prophecy fulfilled other than the Jews being slaughtered and run out of some 114 nations since 70 AD?
“Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost (Greek = the end).” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (KJV 1900)
Except...IT DIDN'T HAPPEN THEN. So, evidently, "this generation" is another generation.
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