Marian Apparitions

[annsni]

First of all I'm not asking you to do anything. However, Lets explore this further. Deut 34:5-8

It is clear from this Passage that Moses died. However, is Moses dead? Is Moses as you say "dead to the earth"? What does scripture say? Matthew 17:1-3 Mark 9:2 Now pay particular attention to Luke 9 Not only do we have a man "dead to the world" as you put it but aware enough of the circumstances to specifically discuss Jesus' departure and fulfillment which of course is his suffering and death to fulfill justice on behalf of mankind. Clearly then we see from these passages that though you as a believer may have physically died it is clear that being with God you are aware of the cirucmstances going on and that you aren't really dead but actually alive. More alive than you were bodily here. So your first analysis is wrong. We are not dead. And we are not dead to the world. The Truth is we are alive! And we know whats up! Look at what Moses was doing. He was speaking to Jesus. At this point Jesus hadn't raised from the dead. Jesus is incarnate and fully human but he was speaking with Moses. Therefore, this principles doesn't lie with Moses alone but the entire body of Believers who are the Church and the body of Jesus Christ which includes Mary. Therefore we can know that as with Moses who knew what was going on and could discuss this with Jesus, Mary can also be knowledgeable about world affairs so to speak.

Were these men sitting in heaven, listening to the prayers of those on earth, bringing them to God? No. They knew about Jesus and His departure because it had been PROPHESIED OF!! They were PROPHETS!! Hmmmm... So let's decide that they watched the earth on a big TV screen and base our doctrine on that? I don't think so.

Yes, people are alive in heaven but they are dead to the earth. Ecclesiastes 9:5.

 

[DaChaser1]

Unless of course, you are wrong and they are right.

WM

satan appeared as 'mary", as the message given by "her" was NOT of/from God!

 

[Matt Black]

There's also the bit, Ann, in Matt 22:32, where Jesus talks about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being 'living' rather than 'dead'.

 

[The Biblicist]

No need to be fresh. Yes, I understand. But then do we float around over the earth, omnipresent and omnipotent listening to the prayers of all so that we can run and deliver them to God? No. We do not. Jesus told us to pray to the Father. Not to man. I listen to Him.

Jesus is set forth to be our supreme example and we are supposedly called "Christians"! Do we find Jesus praying to departed saints? No! Do we find Jesus providing a model prayer that says "Our Father Abraham which art in heaven"? No!

Do we find any of the aposltes, any of the congregations in the New Testament giving honor to a LIVING Mary as the demon of Fatima demands? No!

Do we read of any apostolic instuction to the churches how they should give honor to Mary as demanded by the demon of Fatima??? No!

Hence, New Testament Christianity cannot possibly be Roman Catholic Christianity as they have no similarities.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Were these men sitting in heaven, listening to the prayers of those on earth, bringing them to God?

You have no idea what they were doing. What is clear is that they knew what was going on in the earth as is clear in scripture.

They knew about Jesus and His departure because it had been PROPHESIED OF!! They were PROPHETS!!

So you think they were taking to Jesus about something they heard about 1700 years before? No they knew exactly what was going on and how Jesus was to suffer. As the scriptures plainly points out.

Hmmmm... So let's decide that they watched the earth on a big TV screen and base our doctrine on that? I don't think so.

Jack Chick does ever read "This was your life"? But no the doctrine is based on 2 things the scripture as I have shown and the promise that those who belong to Jesus will never die but have eternal life. I don't know about you but I believe what Jesus promised.

Yes, people are alive in heaven but they are dead to the earth.

Clearly you are wrong because not only was Moses able to have a discussion with Jesus about current events. But he appeared on Earth a Moses apperition if you can put it that way.

Ecclesiastes 9:5.

Nice attempt to take Ecclesiastes out of context. this book is wisdom liturature and falls into the same catagory as proverbs however if you take this literally the end of the passages tells us even if you die as a christian there is no reward. Note

For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten

And God doesn't remember them either. Is that what the passage means? Has God forgoten them? What does Jesus say?

Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

So if we will receive no reward is not true and if God will forget us is not true then it stands to reason that the dead know nothing is also false.

 

[WestminsterMan]

No need to be fresh. Yes, I understand. But then do we float around over the earth, omnipresent and omnipotent listening to the prayers of all so that we can run and deliver them to God? No. We do not. Jesus told us to pray to the Father. Not to man. I listen to Him.

Go back and read what I wrote. When we die we are judged and our destination is either heaven or hell. Pretty simple.

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

You have no idea what they were doing. What is clear is that they knew what was going on in the earth as is clear in scripture. So you think they were taking to Jesus about something they heard about 1700 years before? No they knew exactly what was going on and how Jesus was to suffer. As the scriptures plainly points out.

Jack Chick does ever read "This was your life"? But no the doctrine is based on 2 things the scripture as I have shown and the promise that those who belong to Jesus will never die but have eternal life. I don't know about you but I believe what Jesus promised.


Clearly you are wrong because not only was Moses able to have a discussion with Jesus about current events. But he appeared on Earth a Moses apperition if you can put it that way.
Nice attempt to take Ecclesiastes out of context. this book is wisdom liturature and false into the same catagory as proverbs however if you take this literally the end of the passages tells us even if you die as a christian there is no reward. Note And God doesn't remember them either. Is that what the passage means? Has God forgoten them? What does Jesus say? So if we will receive no reward is not true and if God will forget us is not true then it stands to reason that the dead know nothing is also false.

Excellent! Also remember the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man interceded on behalf of his brothers. If the dead are in fact "dead to the world" why would he even know or care?

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

In six thousand years of recorded Biblical history you have one or two events where the departed appeared and yet Rome takes this and runs with it as though this is the standard rather than the exception.

It is like the unique birth and ministry of John the Baptist, one of a kind, in six thousand years of recorded Biblical history being taken and made the rule rather than the exception.

This is the exact kind of hermeneutics used by all cults. They take the rare exceptions, the ambiguous and make it the cardinal rule for doctrine and practice.

The rich man in Hades wanted Abraham to send back the dead to witness to his brethren and Abraham's reply was?

Lk. 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

But is this Rome's reply? No!

Rome is composed of the spirtually blind who are deceived by false tradition grounded in Christianitzed mystery babylonianism where speaking to the dead and the return of the dead is a common belief especially on "holy evening"!!!

 

[The Biblicist]

Excellent! Also remember the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man interceded on behalf of his brothers. If the dead are in fact "dead to the world" why would he even know or care?

WM

The rich man was in hell! He was a SPIRITUAL DEAD man and his theology was rejected by Abraham or don't you recall what Abraham replied??

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Roman Catholicism shares the theological views of those in hell!

 

[WestminsterMan]

Jesus is set forth to be our supreme example and we are supposedly called "Christians"! Do we find Jesus praying to departed saints? No! Do we find Jesus providing a model prayer that says "Our Father Abraham which art in heaven"? No!

First - the word pray can simply mean to communicate. Go look at the transfiguration - I believe that Jesus was communicating with a couple of dead guys. Ouch...


WM

 

[The Biblicist]

First - the word pray can simply mean to communicate. Go look at the transfiguration - I believe that Jesus was communicating with a couple of dead guys. Ouch...


WM

Wrong! The only word that is used to translate "prayer" that incoporates the entirety of what prayer is, is a word NEVER used to addresss anyone But God. That is the term "proseuchomai."

The terms you refer to are used for a wide variety of applications and simply means "ask" or converse and those things are but aspects of "proseuchomai" but do not even infer a prayer may be in progress at all.

Hence, your argument is moot! If the term "prosechomai" had been used, which denotes prayer in its full aspect then you would have a leg to stand on. However, terms that simply refer to one aspect of prayer which equally can be used for non-prayer is a worthless argument simply becuase it can be argued it simply means ask a question without any connatation of prayer.

 

[billwald]

>But praying the rosary doesn't bring salvation any more than saying it does.

But inviting Jesus into your heart doesn't bring salvation.

If praying for people brings salvation then you all should pick a city and covenant to pray through the phone book, one person at a time. The crime statistics of the city should demonstrate the effectiveness of the prayer. Some big preacher or teacher will invade a city and hold a week's prayer meetings in the local sports arena but it is never reflected in the crime statistics or it would become a bragging point for the campaign.

 

[WestminsterMan]

The rich man was in hell! He was a SPIRITUAL DEAD man and his theology was rejected by Abraham or don't you recall what Abraham replied??

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Abraham's reply doesn't mean that the rich man didn't intercede.

Intercede:
to act as a go-between for opposing sides <asked an old friend of the family to intercede in the bitter dispute over the inheritance>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/intercede

Yes - he was in hell. Yet, he "acted" on behalf of his brothers. Are you saying that people in hell can intercede for us, but people in heaven cannot?

Roman Catholicism shares the theological views of those in hell!

Well, there are probably Christians who believe that you share the "... theological views of those in hell!" Do you care, probably not and I'm sure that they don't either.

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

>But praying the rosary doesn't bring salvation any more than saying it does.

But inviting Jesus into your heart doesn't bring salvation.

If praying for people brings salvation then you all should pick a city and covenant to pray through the phone book, one person at a time. The crime statistics of the city should demonstrate the effectiveness of the prayer. Some big preacher or teacher will invade a city and hold a week's prayer meetings in the local sports arena but it is never reflected in the crime statistics or it would become a bragging point for the campaign.

That is precisely what the demon of Fatima taught! She explicitly told the children that praying the rosary was essential to achieve world peace and salvation of others and she said it repeatedly. She explicitly taught that the children would be acting in the role of a mediator for the salvation of others that would be accomplished by only if they repeated the rosary every day.

 

[The Biblicist]

Abraham's reply doesn't mean that the rich man didn't intercede.

Intercede:
to act as a go-between for opposing sides <asked an old friend of the family to intercede in the bitter dispute over the inheritance>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/intercede

Yes - he was in hell. Yet, he "acted" on behalf of his brothers. Are you saying that people in hell can intercede for us, but people in heaven cannot?



Well, there are probably Christians who believe that you share the "... theological views of those in hell!" Do you care, probably not and I'm sure that they don't either.

WM

Who cares what other Christians think!!!! It is the Word of God that shows that Roman Catholicism shares the views of those in hell!!! That is God's Word that reveals He attempted to act intercessory for those on earth and it the Word of God that REJECTED such intercession!

Hence, your doctrine is not only straight out of hell but the Word of God repudiates it by repudiating his attempt to intercede.

Abraham explicitly defined what "THEY HAVE" on earth and it is not the intercession or praying to departed saints - "THEY HAVE" the Word of God.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Wrong! The only word that is used to translate "prayer" that incoporates the entirety of what prayer is, is a word NEVER used to addresss anyone But God. That is the term "proseuchomai."

The terms you refer to are used for a wide variety of applications and simply means "ask" or converse and those things are but aspects of "proseuchomai" but do not even infer a prayer may be in progress at all.

Hence, your argument is moot! If the term "prosechomai" had been used, which denotes prayer in its full aspect then you would have a leg to stand on. However, terms that simply refer to one aspect of prayer which equally can be used for non-prayer is a worthless argument simply becuase it can be argued it simply means ask a question without any connatation of prayer.

Yes - that is the Greek word for worship used in scripture. Yet people in different venaculars over the centuries have different uses - to ask - and to worship. And there is where you drop the ball with Catholic Theology. They go back to the first century. In in any language, over time they've had different applications of the word "pray" and if you look at those applications, you will see that prayer CAN be used to ask, as in asking for the intercesion of a saint, OR prayer can be used in worship which is given ONLY to God.

Here are few additional Greek words that you might want to know:

Dulia: (Greek doulia; Latin servitus), a theological term signifying the honour paid to the saints
Hyperdulia: the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Latria: means worship given to God alone

Now if you tie that in with the formal definitions of the word "pray" then you might begin to understand:

Definition of PRAY
transitive verb

1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Hence, my argument is anything but moot.

YeeeeeHaw big B!

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes - that is the Greek word for worship used in scripture. Yet people in different venaculars over the centuries have different uses - to ask - and to worship. And there is where you drop the ball with Catholic Theology. They go back to the first century. In in any language, over time they've had different applications of the word "pray" and if you look at those applications, you will see that prayer CAN be used to ask, as in asking for the intercesion of a saint, OR prayer can be used in worship which is given ONLY to God.

Here are few additional Greek words that you might want to know:

Dulia: (Greek doulia; Latin servitus), a theological term signifying the honour paid to the saints
Hyperdulia: the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Latria: means worship given to God alone

Now if you tie that in with the formal definitions of the word "pray" then you might begin to understand:

Definition of PRAY
transitive verb

1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Hence, my argument is anything but moot.

YeeeeeHaw big B!

WM

I could care less what the traditions of men teach. I could care less what how the English Dictionary defines "prayer." I could care less how the Catholic church perverts the Biblical langauge.

There are GENERIC terms used for prayer that are used for non-prayer and so these cannot be used to prove that prayer is being offered in regard to men conversing with men. None of these terms are comprehensive of prayer made unto God but deal with aspects that are common to other non-prayer applications. Hence, they are moot.

There is a Biblical Greek term "proseuchomai" which is the most common and most repeated term in the New Testament which is inclusive of all aspects of genuine prayer (asking, giving thanks, adoration, etc.) and it is NEVER ONCE EVER used to address anyone but God.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Who cares what other Christians think!!!! It is the Word of God that shows that Roman Catholicism shares the views of those in hell!!! That is God's Word that reveals He attempted to act intercessory for those on earth and it the Word of God that REJECTED such intercession!

Hence, your doctrine is not only straight out of hell but the Word of God repudiates it by repudiating his attempt to intercede.

Look at the definition of intercesion again - you missed it last time. It is the ACT that defines someones efforts as intercesion - not the result. Hey that's not my definition so go scream at Merriam Webster. If that definition doesn't fit your little theological model then redefine it to suit. You seem very good at doing that anyway.

Abraham explicitly defined what "THEY HAVE" on earth and it is not the intercession or praying to departed saints - "THEY HAVE" the Word of God.

For a complete rebutal, see my previous post.

WM

 

[Zenas]

Mary is dead. She once walked on earth and she is now dead to the earth. My fellow congregant is not and can actually hear me. If you can show me in Scripture where Mary can hear the prayers of those here on earth, or show me in Scripture where we are told to pray to anyone but God, then I will begin to do so. But since you cannot show me any of this, I will not do it. She cannot hear you. She cannot communicate to God your prayers if she cannot hear you. She cannot be an intercessor for you and bring your prayers to the throne. There is One who can do this and He died for us. Jesus told us how to pray and it was not to Mary but to the Father. I listen to Jesus - not a man-made church that is corrupt.

Ann, I believe you are speaking from the heart based on your reading and understanding of scripture. But Hebrews 12:1 does indeed speak of a great cloud of witnesses. I know you think this means they are “witnessing” to us in a way that we should emulate their faith. However, I can name you a couple of very prominent Southern Baptists on the national stage who would tell you these witnesses are watching us, “cheering us on.” They don’t advocate praying to them.

Now, I’m curious about something. You say Mary is dead. She cannot pray for us. You no doubt put her in the same category with all the other dead saints and that’s OK. Since you are a Baptist who usually holds to the “party line”, I must assume you don’t believe in soul sleep. I am equally confident you don’t believe in limbo or purgatory. So where do you think all these dead people are and what do you think they are doing? I don’t want to debate you on this and I won’t, but I’m really curious as to your concept of where these people are and what they are doing.

 

[The Biblicist]

Look at the definition of intercesion again - you missed it last time. It is the ACT that defines someones efforts as intercesion - not the result. Hey that's not my definition so go scream at Merriam Webster. If that definition doesn't fit your little theological model then redefine it to suit. You seem very good at doing that anyway.

You don't get it! His "ACT" was rejected, repudiated by Abraham. Not only was it REJECTED and REPUDIATED it was CORRECTED by explicitly stating what "THEY HAVE" been provided for that purpose - THE WORD OF GOD.

For a complete rebutal, see my previous post.

WM

Don't see it! Where is it?