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Matt. 23:13 (again!)
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
Rippon, the rational never said what Van claims. But he regularly misrrepresents --it's his M.O.
I said that he apparently doesn't know the difference between heaven and kingdom of heaven.
No one in Matthew 23:13 is said to be trying to enter heaven as I pointed out in my last post.
I said that he apparently doesn't know the difference between heaven and kingdom of heaven.
No one in Matthew 23:13 is said to be trying to enter heaven as I pointed out in my last post.
Mr. Rippon said:
Van said:
Mr. Rippon said:
Popcorn anyone.
Matthew 23:13 is crystal clear, people were entering heaven but were blocked by false teachers. Say goodbye to the mistaken doctrine of total spiritual inability. Scripture teaches the fallen have limited spiritual ability, they can understand spiritual milk such as the gospel, but not spiritual meat.
Absolutely no Bible translation or Bible commentary says the above. That is crystal clear.
H-E-L-L-O, you are the one without the ability to understand Bible basics when we have presented the scriptural record before your eyes --over and over again.
You tell me how you can twist 1 Cor. 2:14, for example, to make it say the opposite of what it does.
Such denial and absurdity. Total Spiritual Inability claims the fallen cannot seek God, but the people of Matthew 23:13 were seeking God. Thus the doctrine is bogus.
Entering heaven = entering the kingdom of heaven = entering the spiritual realm of God. The nit pickers want to change the subject and argue about the meanings of words. Obfuscation anyone.
Entering heaven = entering the kingdom of heaven = entering the spiritual realm of God. The nit pickers want to change the subject and argue about the meanings of words. Obfuscation anyone.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
How about this obfuscation... what if we read Jesus' words here more in terms of salvation history and the progress of God's redemptive program? I believe this to be the best way to interpret whenever the concept of God's kingdom/reign is concerned. Certainly it overlaps with salvation. But it is not to be equated with salvation.
If that is the case, then the people seeking God's kingdom/reign is not the same thing as seeking God in the gospel. We know this to be the case since in other places in the NT, some people wanted Jesus to be king but for incorrect reasons and motives. Many of the Jews (and esp. the Pharisees) wanted God's kingdom to come, but their idea of that kingdom not only bypassed the cross, but they failed to acknowledge the Messiah of God's kingdom. And so this verse is a non-sequitur when it comes to spiritual ability or inability.
If that is the case, then the people seeking God's kingdom/reign is not the same thing as seeking God in the gospel. We know this to be the case since in other places in the NT, some people wanted Jesus to be king but for incorrect reasons and motives. Many of the Jews (and esp. the Pharisees) wanted God's kingdom to come, but their idea of that kingdom not only bypassed the cross, but they failed to acknowledge the Messiah of God's kingdom. And so this verse is a non-sequitur when it comes to spiritual ability or inability.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
More of a, perhaps consider it in this light, kind post.
I too think it means exactly what it says too (tautology by the way)... but you'd be a liar if you denied that you are supplying some kind of theological precondition to the text. I at least admit that freely. In this case, however, I'm trying to give the biblical trajectory the place of priority in my bias reading.
Folks, a repeat of the verse does not actually mean what it says argument. I must be theologically biased to accept it means exactly what it says. Just read Matthew 23:13, people who were entering heaven were prevented by false teachers. The people who were seeking God, seeking Christ, were turned away. Thus they were not being compelled by irresistible grace, yet were seeking God, so they had limited spiritual ability.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Here is a great example of your bias and precondition being used in your interpretation. You assume entering the Kingdom of Heaven is the same as entering heaven. First, that is not what the Kingdom is. Second, the goal is not to enter heaven. The goal is to be w/ God in new creation. The Jews didn't focus on heaven. They focused on a new heavens and new earth. They awaited the day of resurrection and a restored earth. Honestly, I think a little bit of Plato has seeped into your vision. That's alright, many evangelicals are greatly influenced by new-platonic thinking. We just have to learn how to avoid it.
Now we get the nit pick dodge, drawing a distinction where none exists. Then the falsehood, God says seek ye first the kingdom of God, John 3:3-5 teaches the idea is to enter the kingdom. Then the effort to claim my view differs from scripture, corrupted as it is with neo-platoism. One bogus argument after another. Jesus is condemning the scribes from preventing entry. LOL
Greektim
Well-Known Member
And so instead of arguing against my point you dismiss it w/ pontification. This is why I tire from arguing with you, Van. You couldn't explain to me the 2nd temple Jewish concept of kingdom if I asked. You would assume it means heaven. You couldn't explain to me the concept of salvation history. You just go straight to salvation and heaven. You can't even see how your post-enlightenment, modernistic thinking is skewed by new-platonic thought. So I keep my original assertions on this text. Refute it.
BTW... you too are the nit pick dodger now. That's hypocrisy, sir!
BTW... you too are the nit pick dodger now. That's hypocrisy, sir!
More personal attacks, more obfuscation, more effort to change the subject yet again.
Entering heaven = entering the kingdom of heaven = entering the spiritual realm of God. The nit pickers want to change the subject and argue about the meanings of words. Obfuscation anyone.
Bottom line, total spiritual inability has once again been shown to be bogus, fallen people were entering heaven, thus seeking God, Matthew 23:13. Just read it folks.
Entering heaven = entering the kingdom of heaven = entering the spiritual realm of God. The nit pickers want to change the subject and argue about the meanings of words. Obfuscation anyone.
Bottom line, total spiritual inability has once again been shown to be bogus, fallen people were entering heaven, thus seeking God, Matthew 23:13. Just read it folks.
Van, you are full of misinformation and outright nonsense.. You are unteachable to boot.
Nope. A believer enters heaven upon death. One entering the kingdom of heaven does not mean the same thing. That's why no Bible translation has simply "heaven" in Matthew 23:13. That's why no commentary of Matthew has your assertion. That's why you are all alone in your novelties.
Bottom line, no such thing has been demonstrated. It's your tomfoolery speaking.
Note folks, not one holding the mistaken doctrine will admit that entering heaven, entering the kingdom of heaven and entering the spiritual realm of God are the same thing. They all claim distinctions in order to change the subject.
Bottom line, total spiritual inability has once again been shown to be bogus, fallen people were entering heaven, thus seeking God, Matthew 23:13. Just read it folks.
Four lines of evidence have been provided, (1) no scripture actually supports the bogus doctrine of total spiritual inability, not 1 Corinthians 2:14, note Romans 3:11 and not Romans 8:7. Then (2) several passages teach us fallen people were seeking God, such as Matthew 23:13, Matthew 13:1-23, Romans 9:30-33 and so forth. Third, Jesus would not have needed to teach in parables to prevent understanding if His audience could not receive the milk of the gospel. And Fourth, God would not have needed to harden the hearts of unbelieving Jews (Romans 11) to facilitate the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles.
Bottom line, total spiritual inability has once again been shown to be bogus, fallen people were entering heaven, thus seeking God, Matthew 23:13. Just read it folks.
Four lines of evidence have been provided, (1) no scripture actually supports the bogus doctrine of total spiritual inability, not 1 Corinthians 2:14, note Romans 3:11 and not Romans 8:7. Then (2) several passages teach us fallen people were seeking God, such as Matthew 23:13, Matthew 13:1-23, Romans 9:30-33 and so forth. Third, Jesus would not have needed to teach in parables to prevent understanding if His audience could not receive the milk of the gospel. And Fourth, God would not have needed to harden the hearts of unbelieving Jews (Romans 11) to facilitate the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles.
folks.....lol
Besides that funny issue, Paul said that the kingdom of God is righteousness joy and peace in the Holy Spirit (Romans 14) And he contrasted that against living under the law (2Cor 3)
The pharisees were trying to keep people in bondage to the law.
I wonder what "folks" will think anout that?
Folks, lol yet again, Romans 14:17 says the kingdom of God is "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Thus everyone indwelt is in the kingdom of heaven. This should not be this hard.
Four lines of evidence have been provided, (1) no scripture actually supports the bogus doctrine of total spiritual inability, not 1 Corinthians 2:14, not Romans 3:11 and not Romans 8:7. Then (2) several passages teach us fallen people were seeking God, such as Matthew 23:13, Matthew 13:1-23, Romans 9:30-33 and so forth. Third, Jesus would not have needed to teach in parables to prevent understanding if His audience could not receive the milk of the gospel. And Fourth, God would not have needed to harden the hearts of unbelieving Jews (Romans 11) to facilitate the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles.
Four lines of evidence have been provided, (1) no scripture actually supports the bogus doctrine of total spiritual inability, not 1 Corinthians 2:14, not Romans 3:11 and not Romans 8:7. Then (2) several passages teach us fallen people were seeking God, such as Matthew 23:13, Matthew 13:1-23, Romans 9:30-33 and so forth. Third, Jesus would not have needed to teach in parables to prevent understanding if His audience could not receive the milk of the gospel. And Fourth, God would not have needed to harden the hearts of unbelieving Jews (Romans 11) to facilitate the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles.