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Matt. 23:13 (again!)
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
Mr. Rippon you can deny the obvious till the cows come home. Matthew 23:13 says people were entering heaven which is the kingdom of heaven which is the spiritual realm of God. Your effort to change the subject is obvious deflection and without merit. Total Spiritual Inability has once again been demonstrated to be bogus. Four lines of evidence have demonstrated it is unbiblical. No verse or passage supports it, the verses cited all were altered using eisegesis. Many verses such as Matthew 23:13 show fallen people seeking God. Jesus taught in parables to prevent people with limited spiritual ability from receiving the gospel. God hardened hearts to prevent people with limited spiritual ability (before hardening) from receiving the gospel.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
It's like talking to a brick wall. You object to admitting bias in your interpretation. Yet you blatantly introduce bias in your understanding of the reign of God as if that equates to heaven.
I have to add, too, that the goal of God's people is not heaven. It is new creation. It is resurrection on a restored earth. A new and improved paradise/Eden.
I have to add, too, that the goal of God's people is not heaven. It is new creation. It is resurrection on a restored earth. A new and improved paradise/Eden.
Yep, folks, that is all they have, off topic ridicule and efforts to change the subject once again.
Total Spiritual Inability has been shown to be bogus. First, no verse actually supports the bogus doctrine, the verses cited did not actually say what was added via eisegesis. Next, numerous passages were cited such as Matthew 23:13 where fallen people were seeking God. Third, Jesus taught in parables because the timing was not God's timing for some Jews to believe. Finally God hardened hearts of unbelieving Jews (Romans 11) and that action again demonstrates before hardening, they had limited spiritual ability.
And what has been the response, efforts to change the subject. LOL
Total Spiritual Inability has been shown to be bogus. First, no verse actually supports the bogus doctrine, the verses cited did not actually say what was added via eisegesis. Next, numerous passages were cited such as Matthew 23:13 where fallen people were seeking God. Third, Jesus taught in parables because the timing was not God's timing for some Jews to believe. Finally God hardened hearts of unbelieving Jews (Romans 11) and that action again demonstrates before hardening, they had limited spiritual ability.
And what has been the response, efforts to change the subject. LOL
Yet another defiant post of denial.
Matthew 23:13 says people were entering heaven which is the kingdom of heaven which is the spiritual realm of God. The effort to change the subject is obvious deflection and without merit. Total Spiritual Inability has once again been demonstrated to be bogus. Four lines of evidence have demonstrated it is unbiblical. No verse or passage supports it, the verses cited all were altered using eisegesis. Many verses such as Matthew 23:13 show fallen people seeking God. Jesus taught in parables to prevent people with limited spiritual ability from receiving the gospel. God hardened hearts to prevent people with limited spiritual ability (before hardening) from receiving the gospel.
Matthew 23:13 says people were entering heaven which is the kingdom of heaven which is the spiritual realm of God. The effort to change the subject is obvious deflection and without merit. Total Spiritual Inability has once again been demonstrated to be bogus. Four lines of evidence have demonstrated it is unbiblical. No verse or passage supports it, the verses cited all were altered using eisegesis. Many verses such as Matthew 23:13 show fallen people seeking God. Jesus taught in parables to prevent people with limited spiritual ability from receiving the gospel. God hardened hearts to prevent people with limited spiritual ability (before hardening) from receiving the gospel.
From my post #67.
Yes, 1 Corinthians 2:14 says that before a person is indwelt, they do not accept the things of the Spirit. But if they do not accept spiritual meat, that does not support they cannot accept spiritual milk. Note how those practicing eisegesis insert "all things of the Spirit" and act as if that is the only view possible. 
Hey son, the text doesn't mention either milk or meat. It says things that come from the Spirit of God. And by the use of those "things" it would mean all things. One without the Spirit of God cannot understand anything of a spiritual nature --period.
It is foolish for you to read into the text things that are clearly not there. It is blatantly dishonest of you to continue to rend biblical texts as if they are silly putty.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Hi IT, if all you can contribute is insult and disparagement, why post? Matthew 23:13 says people were entering heaven, thus seeking God. And they were not under the influence of "irresistible grace" because they were blocked. None of you have any rebuttal, thus the effort to slander me and change the subject. Go figure.
Next, we get the regurgitation that "the things" means "all the things. Total Twaddle.
Next, we get the regurgitation that "the things" means "all the things. Total Twaddle.
No matter how many times you repeat a falsehood --it remains a falsehood. Absolutely no translation renders it heaven. You are still wrong.
You might want to look at a parallel passage.
Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering. (Luke 11:52 --NIV)
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No matter how many times the evaders deny entering heaven means entering the kingdom of heaven, in order to change the subject, the evasion signals evasion of the obvious. Matthew 23:13 says people were entering heaven, thus seeking God. And they were not under the influence of "irresistible grace" because they were blocked. None of you have any rebuttal, thus the effort to change the subject. Go figure.
Taken from my post #75.
Now, the question we ask is when were men indwelt on an eternal basis and if it occurred when Christ made the statement in focus.
We know He said "The Kingdom (of God) is within you," but does the context speak of a presence which is external rather than internal (within your midst as opposed to inside of you)?
It shouldn't surprise you that others would object to verses like these which seem to make it clear that no-one seeks after God.
This is not actually "evidence," as the texts maintain their statement, which still have to be shown not to mean what is said.
But we also take into consideration that all action of men is the result of something. When it is a matter of men coming into contact or relationship with or to God, the Biblical Pattern is that God initiates that event. So to have evidence to support a denial of total spiritual inability which effectively nullifies what the above verses states you will need to find a Biblical event in which someone initiates contact with God apart from His intervention. And I don't think you are going to find the first account.
In the first quote here, we see that the entire context is one of relationship with God, which is initiated by God, then translated through the Pharisees.
In the second, no less than the Lord Himself is the Initiator.
In the third...
Romans 9:30-33
King James Version (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
...we see two notable points: first, Israel was created by God and initial contact ascribed only by God, and secondly, whether the Gentiles did not follow after righteousness as a result of ignorance of that revelation provided by God in that/those Era/s it does not change the fact that all knowledge of righteousness can be, without controversy, traced back to God as the initial source.
In other words, apart from God's intervention no man since Adam has been righteous or sought after God in a context of the righteousness which Paul presents in the aforementioned texts which state, basically...no man.
The primary sources for motivation for relationship with God, which are all ascribed to God (not something within man's nature), are as Paul teaches in Romans 1-2: the internal witness of God within us, the testimony of Creation, and direct revelation (Scripture, directly speaking to men, and speaking to men through men). Of those three only the first might be conceived as something within the fallen nature, but, that internal witness stands apart from the fallen nature, as this is Paul's point: man's nature rebels against God.
And it is the Holy Spirit Who has always enlightened the fallen man to the truth, yet the response of man to God is not forced.
Again we consider the progressive nature of revelation. We can without controversy that the Mystery of the Gospel was not being revealed, as within that Ministry in view was a context of the revelation previously supplied to men.
And that again demands we give God credit as the Initiator, not something found within men.
Men merely react to that intervention, they do not supply it from something inside.
We look at the example of Pharaoh to conclude that the hardening is a result, not a specific action of God whereby He forces upon man a state of unbelief. Pharaoh's reaction to the events that unfolded fit within that fallen nature he lay in. There is no mystery that fallen men will rebel against the intervention of God, for their nature is geared for that very thing.
All men rely upon God's intervention to be awakened to truth. I believe God grants every man the opportunity for that truth, yet the majority will work within the fallen nature and reject truth, which is a proactive action on their part which doesn't surprise us.
God bless.
Lets do this by the numbers:
1) Where is the kingdom of God? It is neither exclusively "in us" or exclusively "outside us" but rather wherever God is present. Thus when we are indwelt the kingdom of God is within us. Likewise, when God transfers us into the kingdom of His Son, the kingdom surrounds us. We are in Christ and Christ is in us.
2) All three verses (1 Cor. 2:14, Romans 3:11, and Romans 8:7) mean exactly what they say. The effort is to claim they say what they do not say. 1 Cor. 2:14 does not say "all" the things from the Spirit. Yet that is the claim. Romans 3:11 does not say no one seeks God "at any time." Yet that is the claim. And Romans 8:7 does not say men of flesh "always" set their minds on the flesh, yet that is what is claimed.
3) Here the proponent of Total Spiritual Inability conflates God's revelation with "irresistible grace. Twaddle. Of course no one seeks God unless they are aware of God. But Total Spiritual Inability says even when exposed to the gospel, the fallen cannot understand. But Matthew 13 says they received it with joy.
4) Here we have a repeat, claiming God's revelation equates with "irresistible grace." Twaddle times two.
5) Lastly the effort is to day God did not hardened the hearts of the unbelieving Jews. Scripture means what it says. Jesus speaking in parables and God hardening hearts both demonstrate the fallen have limited spiritual ability.
1) Where is the kingdom of God? It is neither exclusively "in us" or exclusively "outside us" but rather wherever God is present. Thus when we are indwelt the kingdom of God is within us. Likewise, when God transfers us into the kingdom of His Son, the kingdom surrounds us. We are in Christ and Christ is in us.
2) All three verses (1 Cor. 2:14, Romans 3:11, and Romans 8:7) mean exactly what they say. The effort is to claim they say what they do not say. 1 Cor. 2:14 does not say "all" the things from the Spirit. Yet that is the claim. Romans 3:11 does not say no one seeks God "at any time." Yet that is the claim. And Romans 8:7 does not say men of flesh "always" set their minds on the flesh, yet that is what is claimed.
3) Here the proponent of Total Spiritual Inability conflates God's revelation with "irresistible grace. Twaddle. Of course no one seeks God unless they are aware of God. But Total Spiritual Inability says even when exposed to the gospel, the fallen cannot understand. But Matthew 13 says they received it with joy.
4) Here we have a repeat, claiming God's revelation equates with "irresistible grace." Twaddle times two.
5) Lastly the effort is to day God did not hardened the hearts of the unbelieving Jews. Scripture means what it says. Jesus speaking in parables and God hardening hearts both demonstrate the fallen have limited spiritual ability.
And again the problem is that the indwelling of God becomes an eternal event at Pentecost. Men did enter into the Kingdom of God at the time of the teaching in focus, but that was the rule and reign to those obedient to the revelation available to them in that day. Men were not Baptized with the Holy Ghost in the New Covenant Ministry effected through the work of Christ.
I agree wholeheartedly, it does not say "all." And that is what narrows it down to be specifically about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And for some reason I am not able to copy and paste right now so will rely on your familiarity with the text: What eye had not seen, nor ear heard, nor did it even come into the hearts of men...was the Gospel.
It is for this reason Paul states "Had they known it they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. And while we might say the disciples knew it, we know they too were not privy to the Gospel because they abandoned Christ when He was taken. Peter went so far as to try to prevent Christ from going to the Cross by taking up the sword, and when this failed, rather than understanding the necessity of the Cross...he denied he even knew Him to preserve his physical life.
I would ask at this point if by TSI you mean inability despite the intervention of God. If so, I would reject that as well.
But if you mean man had/has ability within himself apart from the Spirit of God to understand the spiritual things of God, then I would disagree.
When you were saved, were you saved by reading/hearing Scripture and then coming to a logical conclusion?
I never mentioned irresistible grace.
The fact is that man can resist the Ministry of the Spirit of God, Stephen making this clear is stating "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost," which again points to the fact that God intervened that men might be obedient to His will.
Again, we see that His will has been progressively revealed, the Gospel of Christ not being revealed until The coming of the Comforter. This is evident in the Gospels as well as in Prophecy.
And that is the "ability" man is born with: rebellion against truth.
Just not sound reasoning: just because the result of God's intervention was hardening, does not create the opposite ability, meaning it proves an ability to seek after God.
In other words, my posts, or posts of other members might make you angry. Did I or they force you to become angry? So to with Pharaoh, God's action brought about the result. See Exodus 8:15
We know it was within Pharaoh a nature that accommodated the hard heart, yet you cannot show that there was a nature to follow God. And even if you could, you are still forced to acknowledge God as the Initiator of that interaction and all results that follow.
Finally, we go back to the fact that the character in this story that was obedient to God, Moses...was not eternally indwelt. We cannot equate the indwelling of God under New Covenant conditions as that within the Law and previous Eras. This would nullify Christ's teaching, as well as numerous passages that distinguish the fulfillment of the Promises of God in the Old Testament in Christ with those days when it remained promise.
And by the way, I do not embrace a view that teaches men are regenerated before they can come to faith. What I do believe is that the ability to come to faith is granted by God within and through the Ministry of the Comforter. Again, that is supplied by God, and the individual responds in a manner that he could not prior to that intervention.
God bless.
1) Yes, the indwelling of some occurred at Pentecost. But many have been indwelt subsequently.
2) The things are spiritual meat, as described in the passage (1 Cor. 2:14-3:3). And of course the gospel is spiritual milk.
3) Total Spiritual Inability is overcome by Irresistible Grace accord to the bogus view of some. TSI is bogus and is an unbiblical doctrine. You need to grasp the fact Paul spoke to new born Christians as "men of flesh" using spiritual milk.
4) The fallen can respond to the Revelation of God, as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13.
5) You can say God hardened hearts but He really did not need to till the cows come home. I will take scripture as is, He hardened the hearts of unbelieving Jews, thus before hardening they had some limited spiritual ability.
6) We agree, the OT Saints were not indwelt before Christ died.
7) We disagree that fallen people cannot seek God unless first indwelt. John 1:12-13 teaches the opposite.
2) The things are spiritual meat, as described in the passage (1 Cor. 2:14-3:3). And of course the gospel is spiritual milk.
3) Total Spiritual Inability is overcome by Irresistible Grace accord to the bogus view of some. TSI is bogus and is an unbiblical doctrine. You need to grasp the fact Paul spoke to new born Christians as "men of flesh" using spiritual milk.
4) The fallen can respond to the Revelation of God, as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13.
5) You can say God hardened hearts but He really did not need to till the cows come home. I will take scripture as is, He hardened the hearts of unbelieving Jews, thus before hardening they had some limited spiritual ability.
6) We agree, the OT Saints were not indwelt before Christ died.
7) We disagree that fallen people cannot seek God unless first indwelt. John 1:12-13 teaches the opposite.
