More J6 need to know info

[JonC]

*****
You say they were not insurrections. They were extremely violent rebellions against government. At least one group attempted to secede from the Union. Those are insurrections against the rule of government--definitely were.

I didn't make the rules--the democrats have made them, and by their rules, those "mostly peaceful demonstrations", when compared to the Washington protests, were indeed insurrections. Their rules.

Well...two of those in wingman's picture led groups of people, many armed, saying that it was a civil war. One lamented they did not have rifles.

 

[MrW]

I thought this may be considered germane to the discussion, from Mike Huckabee:


I don’t cover a lot of the January 6th stories here because it’s hard to separate truth from propaganda and legitimate areas of inquiry from conspiracy theories. But when a member of the House Homeland Security and House Oversight and Reform Committees says that investigators believe there were “well over 200” FBI “assets” embedded on January 6th, some dressed as Trump supporters inside the Capitol and waving real Trump supporters in, and that he expects this will lead to criminal referrals but only once there’s a President who will “clean house,” then it might be worth listening to him…

https://redstate.com/nick-arama/2024/01/08/tucker-carlson-drops-some-big-news-from-rep-clay-higgins-about-fbi-informants-and-jan-6-n2168447

Speaking of that, the FBI’s claim that it’s going after even more people on January 6th charges, for such heinous felonies as walking on the grass outside the Capitol, is not going over well with the general public. Particularly considering all the actual violent criminals, terrorists, drug gangsters, violent Antifa rioters and Hamas-supporting radicals that they keep ignoring.

https://www.westernjournal.com/fbi-brags-hunting-january-6-fugitives-post-immediately-backfires/

 

[JonC]

Speaking of that, the FBI’s claim that it’s going after even more people on January 6th charges, for such heinous felonies as walking on the grass outside the Capitol, is not going over well with the general public. Particularly considering all the actual violent criminals, terrorists, drug gangsters, violent Antifa rioters and Hamas-supporting radicals that they keep ignoring.

https://www.westernjournal.com/fbi-brags-hunting-january-6-fugitives-post-immediately-backfires/

A lot goes to sources (I don't care about people thinking the FBI might have had people imbedded. I care about facts. Given that two terroristic type groups were at the riots I would expect them to have embedded agents but that is still not factual).

The part I quoted is what I find important.

The FBI has been tracking down people for trespassing. Those people have been getting small fines. It doesn't justify the resource.

Use the FBI to track down people like Samsel and Rhodes - people who came with the purpose of violence or actually committed violence.

But tracking down people for just being there is using the FBI as a political weapon.

Get the violent rioters. Get those who actually entered the U.S. Capitol. Get those who beat police officers. Get those who damaged the Capitol. Leave the rest alone.


I say this because just being on Capitol grounds, not inside the building, is just trespassing...and normally it would be open to the public.

But law enforcement exists to enforce the law (even non-violent criminals).

 

[percho]

No comparison. But I get the similarities.

Yes, I am a patriot. I served in the Army for 23 years. So I believe that the US is worth defending. We disagree.

And yes, I am a constitutionalist, so I believe that the U.S. Constitution should remain the rule of law for our government. We disagree.


I also disagree that Jan 6 was an insurrection. It was a riot, but it was not designed to overthrow the U.S. government. Those involved were not patriots, but they were not traitors either. Most who were charged (by their own statements) were caught up in a movement, the moment, and deceived by political rhetoric. They were sheeple doing what sheeple do.

1776 was, in fact, an insurrection (one that was successful). Like the Jan 6 rioters the patriots rejected the government that had become oppressive - but unlike the rioters there was purpose (not just a type of violent protest).

The rioters were successful in beating law enforcement officers (over 100 injured). They were successful in damaging a public building. They were successful in expressing hate for the U.S. and the U.S. Constitution.

But it was just an expression....like a child having a temper tantrum. It was no different from the George Floyd riots in substance.

The Revolution was different. It was a nation leaving another nation. Those patriots were, in fact, traitors to Britain. Having won independence they drafted the Constitution.

I also disagree that the US Constitution should be an obsolete document. It is not something that should be overthrown but something that should be enforced.



So I get you comparing the rioters to a group of traitors committing insurrection against a government. But you are wrong in that the rioters (again, by their own statements) did not have that intent.


By your comparison (1776) Trump was an insurrectionist who was defeated on Jan 6. I believe you are incorrect. BUT if you are correct then all of the insurrections should be tried as traitors as the coup failed.

Was it a planed riot or was it a protest that became a riot?

Why did it become a riot? What and who instigated a planed protest to become a riot?

 

[JonC]

Was it a planed riot or was it a protest that became a riot?

Why did it become a riot? What and who instigated a planed protest to become a riot?

It was a planned riot.

Steward Rhodes brought a group of people wearing riot gear to the Capitol and instructed them via radio. He was is founder of an alt-right militia and advocated violence to overturn the government. After Jan 6 (but before his arrest) he complained that they didn't bring rifles.

Enrique Tarrio texted his followers to vandalize the Capitol. He also claimed that he was responsible for the riot.

Dominic Pezzola attacked a police officer, took his shield and used it to break a window into the U.S. Senate. When arrested he had a thumb drive containing instructions for making an improvised explosive device.


BUT as with any large crowd there are different types of people. It appears that most were there to protest. Many, it seems, were also highly influenced (sheeple or natural followers) and ended up following the rioters into the Capitol.

You have to remember that many who were arrested showed up to the protest with weapons, riot gear, chemical spray, and radios to coordinate their actions.


So was it a riot or did it become one? Depends on what "it" is. There was a protest and protestors and there was a riot and rioters.

The protestors left after Trump's speech or stayed outside the restricted areas.

The rioters beat police officers, entered the restricted area, entered the Capitol, broke windows, sprayed police officers with pepper spray, etc.


The problem is the leftists classify all who support Trump as if they were rioters. The alt-right treats the rioters as if they were protestors.

 

[MrW]

A lot goes to sources (I don't care about people thinking the FBI might have had people imbedded. I care about facts. Given that two terroristic type groups were at the riots I would expect them to have embedded agents but that is still not factual).

The part I quoted is what I find important.

The FBI has been tracking down people for trespassing. Those people have been getting small fines. It doesn't justify the resource.

Use the FBI to track down people like Samsel and Rhodes - people who came with the purpose of violence or actually committed violence.

But tracking down people for just being there is using the FBI as a political weapon.

Get the violent rioters. Get those who actually entered the U.S. Capitol. Get those who beat police officers. Get those who damaged the Capitol. Leave the rest alone.


I say this because just being on Capitol grounds, not inside the building, is just trespassing...and normally it would be open to the public.

But law enforcement exists to enforce the law (even non-violent criminals).

*****
Would that it did.

 

[JonC]

*****
Would that it did.

In the case of Jan 6 it is.

Think about it.

Was it illegal for those people who did nothing but walk in the Capitol to walk in the Capitol? Yes, it was illegal.

My argument is that it was a minor offence (just walking in....not beating police officers, breaking things, carrying weapons on Capitol grounds....just walking in).

It is a misuse of federal resources to hunt down and arrest people for simply trespassing on Capitol grounds. Some may have had the idea that a civil war would be in the future but people are not tried and convicted for thoughts.

The Leftists and alt-right are consumed by Jan 6 so it is political ground for them. But it is not for the majority of Americans (the economy, national defense, and immigration are more important according to polling).

But the leftist and alt-right sheeple are fixated.

We can tell by timing. Look at the timing of Trump charges. They are political. The alt-right is the same.

We talked about a supposed recording of a statement made by the lt who shot Babbitt after the shooting.

Think about it.

3 years after Jan 6, in an election year, a recording suddenly appears of a police officer saying somebody is shooting. It is political, and it won't go anywhere.


We need to deal with facts and law, not conspiracy theories and assumptions.

 

[Reynolds]

In the case of Jan 6 it is.

Think about it.

Was it illegal for those people who did nothing but walk in the Capitol to walk in the Capitol? Yes, it was illegal.

My argument is that it was a minor offence (just walking in....not beating police officers, breaking things, carrying weapons on Capitol grounds....just walking in).

It is a misuse of federal resources to hunt down and arrest people for simply trespassing on Capitol grounds. Some may have had the idea that a civil war would be in the future but people are not tried and convicted for thoughts.

The Leftists and alt-right are consumed by Jan 6 so it is political ground for them. But it is not for the majority of Americans (the economy, national defense, and immigration are more important according to polling).

But the leftist and alt-right sheeple are fixated.

We can tell by timing. Look at the timing of Trump charges. They are political. The alt-right is the same.

We talked about a supposed recording of a statement made by the lt who shot Babbitt after the shooting.

Think about it.

3 years after Jan 6, in an election year, a recording suddenly appears of a police officer saying somebody is shooting. It is political, and it won't go anywhere.


We need to deal with facts and law, not conspiracy theories and assumptions.

Why is walking in Capital illegal? Been a long time since I went to D.C. with Boy Scouts, but if I remember correctly, we strolled right in and met some of the Ga delegation.We went in balcony of either House or Senate (forget which) and watched for a while. Is it illegal now? If I walked up and saw doors open, barricades out of way, and people going in, I might do same. I think a lot of J6ers thought they were supposed to go in and protest to Congress. According to videos, after first wave got in, police were not holding an outer line. It was breached while Trump still speaking. By the time the "peaceful" demonstrators got there from Trump rally, there was no police securing outer perimeter at certain diors, they had pulled back and set up inner perimeter inside. Yes, some people could have thought it legal and expected to go inside. If it can be proven FBI agents waved them in, which house committee probably will do, then it becomes classic Entrapment. Police can not invite or facilitate you to commit a crime and then prosecute you for it.
When I worked Under Cover, I had to be careful not to entrap the person selling to me. Grossly overpaying for drugs has gotten casses dismissed for Entrapment.
Hopefully the truth comes out about both sides. We know very little of the truth at this point.

 

[canadyjd]

Yes. Many did. Most were charged and given a fine without any probation. These were the ones that simply trespassed.

The ones that got jail time were carrying weapons, breaking windows, beating police officers, or instructing others to do so.

One exception is Epps. He wasn't involved in the riot but got probation anyway.

Thank you for answering. Please provide the link that shows who got fines and or probation.

peace to you

 

[Reynolds]

Was it a planed riot or was it a protest that became a riot?

Why did it become a riot? What and who instigated a planed protest to become a riot?

I think there were several groups of instigators.
1. Ultra right militia groups
2. Antifa and other radical leftist groups.
3. Federal govt informants and possibly actual Federal agents. (It is proven that an ATF agent was arrested and released when the capital police found out who he was. Of course ATF disciplined him and said he was off duty, but anyone who has working knowledge of ATF knows that they will do almost anything to protect an operation.)

 

[JonC]

Why is walking in Capital illegal? .

Going through security and walking in the U.S. Capitol when it is open to the public is not illegal.

But bypassing security and walking into the U.S. Capitol when it is not open to the public is illegal.

It is the same with the White House. You can go through security and walk into the White House when it is opened to the public. BUT bypassing security and walking into the White House when it is not opened to the public is illegal.

Most public buildings are like this.

You can go to Atlanta , go through security, and walk into the Governor's Mansion when it is opened to the public. But it is illegal to bypass security and walk in if it is closed to the public.


If the only thing a person did was walk into the Capitol then they broke the law (they entered a restricted area, they trespassed).

But many broke other laws (protesting in certain areas, carrying guns, carrying tasers, beating officers, breaking windows and doors, etc.).


My issue is more with how politicians handle riots. In the Floyd riots breaking the law was essentially ignored. You could burn down a restaurant and be fined $500 (which the Democrats would pay for you). But be a Republican and trespass and you go to jail.

 

[JonC]

Thank you for answering. Please provide the link that shows who got fines and or probation.

peace to you

Capitol Breach Cases

Several cases were dismissed, about half were sentenced to jail time.

Frank Bratjan, for example, didn't get jail time. But he was charged with disorderly conduct and entering the building.

Richard Barnett, on the other hand, entered, threatened a police officer, took an envelope (misdemeanor theft, except technically it was government property) and was carrying a taser on Capitol grounds. He got 4.5 years.

 

[777]

Thank you for answering. Please provide the link that shows who got fines and or probation.

peace to you

oh yeah, hope he can give ya a more recent one than this:

30 Months Since the Jan. 6 Attack on the Capitol

and. about Epps, he didn't have to appear in court AND his probation is unrestricted, he can leave the state whenever he wants to. Highly unusual - either he's a fed or he's the only Trump supporter the left goes out of its way to defend tooth and nail. I don't know if that adopted daughter is telling the truth or not, she seems unhinged herself, and I'm not going to believe a word out of that troll "Baked Alaska's" mouth::

...So Epps keeps following me around. And he was saying the same exact phrases over and over like it was a script. When he said it the 2nd or 3rd time, it clicked in my head and I thought “wow this guy is most likely a federal informant stirring up trouble”. He said he would most likely go to jail for saying this and then said again with more might conducting the crowd “tomorrow we must GO IN TO THE CAPITOL” . Which at that point as seen on the famous footage I scream “nooooooooo” and chant straight to his face “FED FED FED.” The entire crowd starting chanting with me, because they had all heard and seen his behavior. And while we told him to go away and stop, Epps was determined to continue with the same script....

So he's taking credit for the idea that Epps is a fed, this coming from a guy that pepper-sprayed random people on the street for youtube hits? Among other things - from one of the most notorious sites n the internet call him "a white rapper. alt-right "activist, ex-Buzzfeed contributor; got arrest and the March for Trump and a federal snitch."

Probably, and he was one of many on Jan.6. The committee destroyed a lot of their records, wo who know? I always found it strange that both Epps and this BA person both lived in the same city and were involved with the alt-right at the same time were both there on Jan 6. Probably glowing.

 

[JonC]

oh yeah, hope he can give ya a more recent one than this:

30 Months Since the Jan. 6 Attack on the Capitol

and. about Epps, he didn't have to appear in court AND his probation is unrestricted, he can leave the state whenever he wants to. Highly unusual - either he's a fed or he's the only Trump supporter the left goes out of its way to defend tooth and nail. I don't know if that adopted daughter is telling the truth or not, she seems unhinged herself, and I'm not going to believe a word out of that troll "Baked Alaska's" mouth::

...So Epps keeps following me around. And he was saying the same exact phrases over and over like it was a script. When he said it the 2nd or 3rd time, it clicked in my head and I thought “wow this guy is most likely a federal informant stirring up trouble”. He said he would most likely go to jail for saying this and then said again with more might conducting the crowd “tomorrow we must GO IN TO THE CAPITOL” . Which at that point as seen on the famous footage I scream “nooooooooo” and chant straight to his face “FED FED FED.” The entire crowd starting chanting with me, because they had all heard and seen his behavior. And while we told him to go away and stop, Epps was determined to continue with the same script....

So he's taking credit for the idea that Epps is a fed, this coming from a guy that pepper-sprayed random people on the street for youtube hits? Among other things - from one of the most notorious sites n the internet call him "a white rapper. alt-right "activist, ex-Buzzfeed contributor; got arrest and the March for Trump and a federal snitch."

Probably, and he was one of many on Jan.6. The committee destroyed a lot of their records, wo who know? I always found it strange that both Epps and this BA person both lived in the same city and were involved with the alt-right at the same time were both there on Jan 6. Probably glowing.

Epps was charged with disorderly conduct. Others charged with disorderly conduct and entering the Capitol (Epps didn't enter the Capitol) got a fine and unsupervised probation.

Courts don't convict on rumors and assumptions. Facts must be weighed.

Did Epps believe the election was stolen? Yes. Did he organize protestors to go to the Capitol? Yes. But those are not illegal.

Now, you have others who brought people with riot gear and weapons AND took credit (before their arrest) for causing the riot. (These are now praised by the alt-right as heros). One called for civil war and afterwards complained that they didn't bring rifles. Another had instructions for an improvised explosive device. Another was on parole, had a warrant out for his arrest, and attacked a police officer.

If anybody arranged the riot it was probably those who brought armed people in riot gear, tear gas, buttons, tasers, and radios for communication....you know...the ones who claimed they started the riot.


BTW....if you look at the link (those charged with the Capitol breach), Epps (and many others) won't be there as they didn't breach the Capitol. But I did provide the link. It is interesting.

 

[JonC]

Let's look at one of @Wingman68 's heros (one pictured in his post).

Dominic Pezzola

On Jan 6 Pezzola attacked a police officer and took a shield. He used that shield to break a window to enter the U.S. Capitol.

Pezzola is on video having a "victory smoke" inside the Capitol. He said (on video) that he knew they could take the Capitol (he used profanity) if they tried hard enough.

Afterwards Pezzola bragged about breaking windows and stated that anybody, including Pelosi, they "got their hands on [they] would have killed.'. He said they would have killed Mike Pence if they got the chance.

His group (a sect of the Proud Boys) planned a return trip on Jan 20, stating they had access to weapons and would kill anybody they could.

Pezzola was arrested on 15 Jan. When arrested he had instructions for making a improvised explosive device and using poisons in weapons.

His defense was that Trump had fooled him.


Why should Pezzola not have been given prison time?

 

[JonC]

I think there were several groups of instigators.
1. Ultra right militia groups
2. Antifa and other radical leftist groups.
3. Federal govt informants and possibly actual Federal agents. (It is proven that an ATF agent was arrested and released when the capital police found out who he was. Of course ATF disciplined him and said he was off duty, but anyone who has working knowledge of ATF knows that they will do almost anything to protect an operation.)

Maybe time will tell....but I doubt it. After this election few will care. It will be like those still concerned with covid vaccines. Those who care don't matter. And what matters will fall to the wayside and be overshadowed in conspiracy theory.

We know extreme-right militia groups were involved. The rest is theory...for now.

What makes this difficult is misinformation (by the extreme right and left). The right making some of these guys out to be heros is also problematic (it discredits anything they may have to offer).

 

[MrW]

What I meant is I don’t think law enforcement exists to enforce the law. I think it exists to enforce an agenda.

 

[JonC]

What I meant is I don’t think law enforcement exists to enforce the law. I think it exists to enforce an agenda.

I have known too many law enforcement officers to agree with you on that one. But I do agree that politicians abuse the law.

What I was speaking of is the fact the major complaint on this thread is that people who committed crimes were charged with the crimes they committed.

 

[MrW]

I have known too many law enforcement officers to agree with you on that one. But I do agree that politicians abuse the law.

What I was speaking of is the fact the major complaint on this thread is that people who committed crimes were charged with the crimes they committed.

I’m sure there are some altruistic individuals left. The individuals aren’t the leadership nor the totality of the groups, apparently. I would like to be in error.

 

[JonC]

I’m sure there are some altruistic individuals left. The individuals aren’t the leadership nor the totality of the groups, apparently. I would like to be in error.

Some. But many truly believe that those who violate the law should face consequences and simply leave it up to the courts.