New Doctor Who

[Pete]

Martha rocks! Look out Rose!

Dead right CC re Martha asking the right kind of questions.

I do wonder if maybe someone had a bit of a run-in with police that inspired some characters of this episode though? Hope we see more of them through the season...Even if there is a touch of Vogon about them...

Almost cried at the loss of the Doctor's old friend, but at the risk of giving a spoiler we see it works out ok at the end Enjoyed the Doctor's little time travel demonstration at the end too.

Now just have to hope they can keep it at this standard for next 12 episodes :thumbs:raying:

 

[Pete]

The Shakespeare Code just...er...materialised from the vortex...

The biggest of the small bugs I had with this one was the bad guys..er..girls seemed maybe a bit too...cartoonish? (Especially compared to something like the people the Gelf used in 9's Unquiet Dead ... Oh well, could have been an Abzorbaloff )

I wonder can I complain about a couple too many Shakespeare quotes thrown into an episode featuring him?

I'm a bit undecided about the scenes in this one showing 10 is not over Rose. On one hand, ok as 9 said she was fantastic - on the other hand it puts a lot of pressure on poor Martha to do something spectacular soon to get the Doctor to accept her as .. not a replacement for Rose but just as "fantastic" as her. So far it looks like the writers and Freema will be up to the job though


Preview of next week looks great. The Face of Boe returns, along with a recent FURious foe. Then we get a Dalek double-header, and just surfed across news that The Master will very likely be appearing in Last of the Time Lords at end of this season....Which now means 9's remark about being able to feel other Time Lords if they were around goes into the "Certain point of view" folder

 

[ccrobinson]

Even if there is a touch of Vogon about them.

I was thinking they most resembled the Sontarans.

Which now means 9's remark about being able to feel other Time Lords if they were around goes into the "Certain point of view" folder

Not so fast, my friend. I don't think, and have never thought, that this is an insurmountable obstacle. For example, if the Time Lords (one or more) went into the Void, the Doctor wouldn't be able to feel them. If the Daleks can get into the Void, I don't know why the Time Lords couldn't. And, who knows how the Time War affected the Doctor's ability to feel other Time Lords?

I'm not ready to compare it to Lucas' continuity problems just yet. BTW, I finally did see the version of "New Hope" where Greedo shoots first and was, as expected, very disappointed. Not only is it stupid that Greedo misses Han, what's so wrong about Solo killing Greedo before Greedo kills him? Ridiculous.

The bigger problem they have with the Master are the events of The Enemy Within, the 1996 made-for-TV movie. The last time we saw him, the Master got sucked into the Eye of Harmony. How can he possibly get out of there?

 

[Pete]

At first glance I almost did cartwheels thinking they were Sontarans...before the side profile shots anyway...but Douglas Adams' description of Vogons seems to suit their attitudes perfectly They are one of the most unpleasant races in the Galaxy not actually evil, but bad-tempered, bureaucratic, officious and callous....


Any Time Lord coming from the Void would have to have good excuse for being there...unless they went in pre-Time War of course. As The Doctor mentioned he fought on the front lines and wiped out the Dalek fleet, I doubt he would appreciate someone going AWOL. How they get out of the void would be interesting too. With The Doctor still obsessed with Rose wouldn't he have been looking for rift into the void over to Rose's universe? Or maybe holes can only be punched from inside. A few for the wait and see pile I guess

Oh, and thought just hit me that 9 said that about feeling other Time Lords after the Time War, so.... I won't argue with RTD and the gang too much though, as long as they don't give us another Love And Monsters Episode (ever notice that spells LAME? )

 

[ccrobinson]

As The Doctor mentioned he fought on the front lines and wiped out the Dalek fleet, I doubt he would appreciate someone going AWOL.

Undoubtedly. He ridiculed the Daleks for going into the Void and not fighting. He would be positively furious with another Time Lord doing that.

How they get out of the void would be interesting too.

Perhaps. Remember that the Watcher took the TARDIS out of time and space during the Logopolis story. That's probably not the same thing as being in the Void, though.

... wouldn't he have been looking for rift into the void over to Rose's universe?

I'm sure he's tried everything he can think of to get over there without taking the risk of destroying both universes.

Oh, and thought just hit me that 9 said that about feeling other Time Lords after the Time War, so....

I'm not sure what you're saying here. It wasn't just 9 saying that about feeling other Time Lords. I'm pretty sure that both 3 and 5 have said that as well, specifically referring to the Master

 

[Matt Black]

The first two episodes of Season Three have just aired over here:-

1. Smith and Jones - liked it; good intro for Martha and I agree with the Vogon-Sontaran comparison for the Judoon - although there was a bit of an homage to Judge Dredd there too. Liked the Little Old Lady vampire/plasmavore-with-a-straw too.

2. The Shakespeare Code - liked the idea of words as being creative. Didn't like the broomsticks as seemed too silly for me.

 

[Pete]

Gridlock

Where to start and where to stop...and how to do it all without spoilers.

After the Eccleston season's "stupid ape" nods to evolution and the bisexuality of Capt Jack, this time RTD throws Christians a treat with inclusion of the first verse of The Old Rugged Cross, and two verses of Abide With Me. So it isn't too offensive to the rest of the world though two old married ladies (yes, to each other) join in on Old Rugged Cross, and Abide With Me is used almost as if the word "Time" is placed before the word "Lord" in the song.....

Although me watching it the way I did probably puts me in same boat....

Last 4 words of the Face of Boe as mentioned further up thread are in there. Boy I'ld love to see some back-story on that character.

In the first Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy book Douglas Adams wrote In moments of great stress, every lifeform that exists gives out a tiny sublimal signal. This signal simply communicates an exact and almost pathetic sense of how far that being is from the place of his birth. In Gridlock Tennant has some of his best moments as the Doctor so far as he sends out the same signal a couple of times towards the end, but there is nothing tiny about it. He looked like a Time Lord....I had Dave well behind Chris, Tom and Jon on my list of fav Doctors, but oh boy did he narrow the gap on my list with those few scenes.

And next week we get Mr Nation's creations back.

Oh, and thought just hit me that 9 said that about feeling other Time Lords after the Time War, so....

I'm not sure what you're saying here. It wasn't just 9 saying that about feeling other Time Lords. I'm pretty sure that both 3 and 5 have said that as well, specifically referring to the Master

9 had that line after the Time War, but you might have me there because I could have missed or forgotten 3/5 using something like that. Will have to do some digging through gallifreyone later

 

[Matt Black]

The scene at the end with Martha and the Doctor sitting down in the Undercity was the best bit...well, that and the kittens!

And, never mind about the hymns, you have the Face of Boe sacrificing himself for all humanity - Russell T Davies truly is a lousy atheist!

Re the last four words, Davies has said apparently and enigmatically that the Face of Boe isn't lying but neither are his words accurate.

 

[ccrobinson]

I did get to watch The Shakespeare Code a couple of days ago. I made a list of my favorite lines, none of which are spoilers.

The Doctor: You can tell everybody you met Shakespeare.
Martha (excitedly): Then I can get sectioned!

The Doctor: The men dress as women. London never changes.

Shakespeare: To be or not to be.
The Doctor: You should write that down.
Shakespeare: I don't know, a bit pretentious.


A couple of other things that were cool. The character I don't remember complaining that sequels aren't as good as the original. And, Martha was brilliant, asking all the right questions and making all the right deductions.

Anything else I want to say about the story is going to spoil it for bapmom when SciFi starts showing the new season in September.

Bapmom, are you hanging around this thread anymore? Have you taken any opportunity to catch up on some old Doctor Who stories?

 

[ccrobinson]

I just got done watching Gridlock. To use 9's favorite word, it was fantastic. Best of the season so far.

 

[Matt Black]

Daleks tomorrow - is it just me or are the Daleks getting a tad over-used?

 

[ccrobinson]

Yes, I agree. I'm tired of the Daleks.

I've heard, not seen, Doctor Who Confidential after last season's Doomsday. One of the main things that was mentioned was how it was such an epic story with the Cyberman and Daleks battling, and how it needed to be an epic story since it was Rose's last. It's also mentioned that killing Rose off was never a consideration. The show is about love and hope and optimism and plenty of Sci-Fi shows would, and have, killed a beloved character. For instance, Star Trek did it twice. But, killing Rose would have been out of character for the show.

When they keep bringing the Daleks back though, it makes it look like the Time Lords died for nothing. Maybe that's the point, but if the Time Lords, as a race, couldn't stop evil (personified by the Daleks), then where's the hope? Where's the optimism in knowing that evil pretty much always finds a way to win?

I don't know. Maybe I'm just tired of them.

BTW, this wasn't really talked about at the time, but let me talk about it now. The Cybermen of Doomsday aren't the real Cybermen. They were the alternate-universe Cybermen, who weren't as tough as the real Cybermen. The epic battle between the Cybermen and the Daleks was more like a massacre than a battle. I don't mind seeing the Cybermen and Daleks fight, but let's not pretend that those were the real Cybermen.

I don't know what the real Cybermen would have done against the Daleks, but the real Cybermen were more calculating and cunning than the alternates. The real Cybermen would have already had the appropriate weapon at their disposal for breaking through the polycarbonite Dalek armor. The alt-Cybermen had no clue what they were getting themselves into by attacking the Daleks.

Anyway, enough of the Daleks. Maybe this 2-parter coming up will finally wrap up the last loose end of the Daleks. We can always hope.

 

[Matt Black]

Daleks of Manhattan screened here on Saturday. I take back what I said - largely - this was the best of the season so far. Homages to Phantom of the Opera (Lazlo and Tallulah) and also previous Dalek slave races - Robomen, Ogrons and now Pig Slaves; parallels with Rise of the Cybermen re vagrants and dispossessed being kidnapped for experiments

(Still think that RTD is in danger of treating the Daleks like John Nathan-Turner did the Master)

 

[Pete]

Grrrrr.....was typing here last night and browser crashed, lost the lot...see if I can do some of it again.

On one hand I will have to say great points cc, on the other hand though I still get the same kick now I got almost 30 years ago when first watched 3 & 4 go up against the grumpy octopuses in giant mobile armoured salt-shakers....

Anyways, on to The Muppets Take Manhatten...er...Daleks In Manhatten...Our friend Sec from Doomsday returns with another 3 members of the Cult of Skaro who managed to avoid the void. Believing themselves to be the last 4 Daleks (that'll be the day) they are on Earth conducting an experiment to adapt/evolve - well, as we saw in Doomsday the Cult of Skaro members tend to think outside the ....errrr.... salt-shaker

I know they'll be dealt with next week by the Doctor or Rose (oops, she's in parallel universe, ok, just the Doctor then) - but must admit I've got a couple of worries on how that will happen. There are some major cop-outs they can take with dealing with Dalek Sec...

Which brings another thing to mind, Dalek Sec will have about half of a 45 minute episode next week to show how the post-experiment version of himself is above and beyond the normal Dalek standard. Would it be any challenge if he was weaker and an easy target while building strength? Going to be interesting to see what roads they do take with this one...

Dave has more good moments, he's starting to make a habit of this. If he keeps it up Jon and Tom's position on my list could get a bit shaky...Who (sorry) knows, maybe one day even Chris' spot too

 

[ccrobinson]

I finished watching Daleks in Manhattan this morning, and I think Sec has made a big mistake. I don't think it will work out like he thinks it will.

Also, did I detect an emotion, sadness, in Sec while talking about his planet, or lack thereof? Wasn't that the strangest thing, sadness in a Dalek, that you've ever heard in the Whoniverse?

Thankfully, while building the device, the Doctor didn't require Martha to give up the gum she was chewing. (Yeah, I don't think she was chewing gum either, but just go with me on this one. :smilewinkgrin

 

[Pete]

Evolution of the Daleks

cc, Sec Mk II did and didn't have a problem.... "From a certain point of view" as Obi-Wan would say If you were thinking what I was thinking about the problem Sec would have...then I guess we were both right. I hoped they wouldn't do that, but oh well. The last line of Terminator 2 comes to mind.

Dave ran around a bit, said some stuff, did some stuff ....*YAWN*.... but then at the end they gave him a moment reminiscent of Tom, and an interesting comparison against Chris when he was in a similar situation.... *tries hard not to give spoilers*

No regeneration - again Although reports say 10 will still be with us next year, I'm wondering how long he will be with us for...the couple of things he has done to himself so far this year must be taking their toll on him...

"Martha! Martha! Martha!" ....(sorry ).... I'm sure if 9 had met Martha he'ld put her up with Rose on the "Fantastic!!" list, but the writers still have 10 trying to get over Rose, and Freema is being under-used because of it. Maybe they're scared she'll out-perform Dave like Billie did if they give her too much? Weird really, considering there have been times when the sonic screwdriver has given better performance than 10

 

[Matt Black]

This two-parter was basically just a rewrite of the 1968 Troughton story Evil of the Daleks; the Doc in this one however almost got a chance to retart the Time Lords as a race, but is foiled by Dalek Karn

 

[ccrobinson]

I'm sure if 9 had met Martha he'ld put her up with Rose on the "Fantastic!!" list,

Absolutely. Every great Companion would be on the fantastic list for every different incarnation of the Doctor. We already know what both 4 and 10 think of Sarah Jane, for instance.

but the writers still have 10 trying to get over Rose, and Freema is being under-used because of it.

It's a testament to Freema that she's still made Martha be about 10 kinds of awesome. BTW, I don't remember your list of Top 5 companions, but has Martha cracked your Top 5 yet? It took her 1 episode to make it onto my Top 10 and 4 to get on my Top 5.

This two-parter was basically just a rewrite of the 1968 Troughton story Evil of the Daleks

Yes, that's the story I was thinking of at the end of Manhattan.

 

[Pete]

Yep, Martha is in there. My top 5 list of companions currently goes something like:

1) Rose
2) Sarah-Jane
3) Leela (As I mentioned, always ready to turn the bad guy of the week into soup of the day until the Doctor stopped her)
4) Martha (with a bullet, if they give Freema some real work then look out Louise, Liz & maybe even Billiehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Jameson)
5) Jo


For the Doctor himself: 9, 4, 3, 10 (improving), and probably 2 even though haven't caught too much of him.

 

[ccrobinson]

Got to watch Evolution tonight. What happened to Sec wasn't unexpected by me at all. I don't quite understand how the Doctor seemed to know what was going to happen to Sec, but then was still surprised when it actually did. Maybe that was just the years of dealing with his enemy talking.

but then at the end they gave him a moment reminiscent of Tom, and an interesting comparison against Chris when he was in a similar situation

You mean the high place for the 4 moment? Not only that for 4, but the climb in "The Idiot's Lantern." And, I think I know which 9 moment you're referring to, but I can't be for sure, because there were 2 of them in Evolution.

Did you get a feeling that the Doctor came thiissss close to calling her Rose instead of Martha? I don't remember the exact scene, but he almost called her Rose.

Interesting story, but my vote for best of the season remains Gridlock.