No one deserved to be saved. Why the angst with Particular redemption?

[TCassidy]

So how did you?

I didn't. He did. He regenerated me and enabled me to believe, repent, and follow him.

Better yet if God gave you faith when did He were you born regenerated so you could believe?

He gave me faith at the moment I was regenerated.

 

[InTheLight]

Who won the game?

You do not have to respond. ....but this was my reaction in trying to think on these things. I could ask dozens more questions like these......and answer them.

The White Sox.

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[revmwc]

You have serious defects in comprehension. Nothing I stated even remotely alludes to your asinine conclusion. You're being deceitful and disingenuous to come up with the above nonsense.

It's apparent you feel whenever you misread an ODT you come up with the fallacy that they believe and support your errors. Many show to you your inability to see the forest for the trees.

Well if I misread explain how we can be saved/regenerated before we believe? Explain how that works, Please.

 

[revmwc]

I didn't. He did. He regenerated me and enabled me to believe, repent, and follow him.

He gave me faith at the moment I was regenerated.

So you believed after you were saved. How does that match up with believe and thou shalt be saved/regenerated. You have agreed that regeneration=salvation so how does that work being saved to believe?

 

[TCassidy]

The sheep.

His sheep. Amen!

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[TCassidy]

How does that match up with believe and thou shalt be saved/regenerated.

Salvation and regeneration are not the same thing.

You have agreed that regeneration=salvation so how does that work being saved to believe?

No, I have not so agreed. Regeneration is much different from salvation. That is like saying "birth = all of life." That is purely nonsensical!

 

[JonC]

Salvation and regeneration are not the same thing.

No, I have not so agreed. Regeneration is much different from salvation. That is like saying "birth = all of life." That is purely nonsensical!

You mean regeneration.

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[TCassidy]

You mean regeneration.

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Duh! LOL!

 

[Internet Theologian]

Well if I misread explain how we can be saved/regenerated before we believe? Explain how that works, Please.

'If' you misread it? No, it's 'since', not 'if'.

Go reread it and pray that God will grant you to see without the lens of presuppositions you hold to. You misread almost everything due to this, and find support from ODT's for your beliefs that don't exist in the quotes you provide of them.

 

[percho]

Salvation and regeneration are not the same thing.

No, I have not so agreed. Regeneration is much different from salvation. That is like saying "birth = all of life." That is purely nonsensical!

Could regeneration be seen as the beginning of salvation, the begettal of salvation?

1 Peter 1:3-9 The power of God verse 5?

 

[Greektim]

But the Grace of God and His atonement for sin is unlimited. Can God be called Omnipotent and be limited? All powerful and be limited? God cannot sin either, and yet He made man in His image. Of course that is a different discussion.

I actually gave you some examples of limitations of his power. He does not have the power to create a god identical to himself. He does not have the power to create a squared circle. He does not have the power to make 2+2=5. He does not have the power to deny himself.

As for the limits on the grace, would you agree that God's grace has varying degrees? Certainly, the bride receives far more grace than Hitler. This is why we have terms like common grace and such.

As for limits on the atonement... you believe it is limited, unless you are a universalist. We just disagree with who is doing the limiting.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So the whole rub is we both see each other limiting God.

Bzzzzzz! Wrong! We do not limit God. It is your side of this debate that does that. You guys say God does His part and then after you do yours, you're saved. Bzzzz! Wrong again!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Is that your definition of particular redemption? No one deserves to be saved?

I thought it meant that Christ's death was only efficacious for the elect.

The idea of the OP was that both sides agree that no one deserved to be saved. If God had not came as Christ, we would deservedly end up in hell.

So if Christ came and saved 1, or 555, or 1,589,258, or 15,269,489,258,125 or 'gooseegg', those who die and go to hell, still never deserved to be saved to begin with.

So, why the angst?

 

[SovereignGrace]

It limits the Grace of God!

Bzzzzzz! Wrong!! It magnifies His grace. For Him to even save one sinner who rightly deserved hell show His grace.

Thus it places limits on the payment made by the True Sacrifice for sin.

Christ said He did. He said 1) "I lay My life down for the sheep"[John 10], "I pray for them You gave Me and not the world"[John 17], and Paul said Christ died for the church[Ephesians 5:25]. The payment, limited by God in Christ, was limited to His chosen ppl, His sheep. We did not limit it, He did. Take that up with Him and not us.

God is unlimited His Grace is part of His attributes and yet to limit His mercy and grace is to put limits upon Him. Thus He would not be Omnipotent.

Huh? Whaaa? Srsly? Who has stated to the contrary? God grace is without limits, but He has limited who He bestows it upon. Again, gotta problem, take it up with Him and not us.

 

[SovereignGrace]

"According to limited atonement, Christ only bore the punishment due for the sins of the elect alone. Consequently, no one else can or will receive the saving benefits of His death. This term will be used as a synonym for “definite atonement, ”particular redemption,” and “strict particularism.”

I agree with this.

In limited imputation, the sins of the elect only were substituted for, atoned for, or imputed to Christ on the cross.

I also agree with this.

In unlimited imputation, the sins of all of humanity were substituted for, atoned for, or imputed to Christ on the cross.

And if everybody's sins atoned for, you walk smack int universalism. His atoning sacrifice brought with it, propitiation. Propitiation satisfied God's wrath towards sin. If everybody's sins were atoned for via Christ's crosswork, then God has no wrath toward sin and sinners. Hello universalism.

Infinite or universal sufficiency, when used by strict particularists, means that the death of Christ could have been sufficient or able to atone for all the sins of the world if God had intended for it to do so. However, since they think God did not intend for the death of Christ to satisfy for all, but only for the elect, it is not actually sufficient or able to save any others. When used by Dualists and non-Calvinists, the term means that the death of Christ is of such a nature that it can actually save all men. It is, in fact (not hypothetically), a satisfaction for the sins of all humanity. Therefore, if any people perish, it is not for lack of an atonement for their sins. The fault lies totally within themselves.

Again, if Christ died for all, then all will be saved. Hello universalism. Period. End of story.

…those who reject a strictly limited atonement, believe God’s saving design in the atonement was dualistic: (1) He sent Christ for the salvation of all humanity so that His death paid the penalty for their sins, and (2) Christ died with the special purpose of ultimately securing the salvation of the elect. The classic Arminian and non-Calvinist view of the intent of the atonement is that Christ died equally for all men to make salvation possible for all who believe, as well as to secure the salvation of those who do believe (the elect).

Excerpts from Whosoever Will: A Biblical-Theological Critique of Five-Point Calvinism by David L. Allen & Steve W. Lenke (2010)

And how cruel would God be to spit upon the work of His Son? Why do I ask it? That is what universal atonement does. Christ died for them, but then God turns around and tosses them headlong into hell, all the while having their sins already atoned for. Hello universalism. Period. End of story.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here is what you said verbatum
"To say that you have to do something (believe, repent, accept, pray the sinner's prayer, walk the aisle, anything) to add to Christ's finished word is to limit the Omnipotence of God. It is to say that God cannot save you without your help."

Ppl do not believe because they are dead in their sins. They do not believe because they hate Him. They do not believe because their heart is a cold, dead stone.

Please show me where I am being dishonest, I wouldn't want to attribute something to you that you didn't say, but there is the exact quote and it clearly says "It is to say that God cannot save you without your help."

Even the ability to believe is wrought by God. Please read John 6:30.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Okay they said believe and thou shalt be saved. Isn't that adding somethinng?

Even demons believe and also shudder. Does that mean they'll be saved, too?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Okay so not one believer was dead in trespasses and sins before salvation,

Bzzzzzzz!! Wrong!! Who has ever avowed this? Show me just one post.

that is the we who must believe not my words Christ said whosoever believes, Paul said believe on the Lord. Believe what? Just that He lived on this earth? Do we need to realize our lost state? The Philippian jailer did, so did Paul and Silas tell him be your saved now believe? Regeneration=salvation so is that the message since you're regenerated believe?

Until God quickens the dead, they can not believe. They hate Him, they all things about Him. Until you realize how radically depraved we were and the unregenerate still are, you'll arrive at the same wrong conclusions until doomsday.

Look at Ezekiel 37 and how God brought to life those jumbled up, dry bones. What belief did they exercise when they came back to life? The widow woman's dead son in Luke 7, what belief did he exercise when Christ brought him back to life? What belief did Lazarus exercise when Christ called him out of his tomb?

Until you realize that regeneration is different from conversion, you'll arrive at the same wrong conclusions until doomsday.

It is once God has quickened the sinner, that they exercise 'believe on the Lord and you shall be saved', and not before.

 

[TCassidy]

Could regeneration be seen as the beginning of salvation, the begettal of salvation?

Yes, exactly. Just as birth is the beginning of life (yeah, yeah, I know, but it is an illustration) so also the new birth is the beginning of our New Life.

 

[revmwc]

Bzzzzzzz!! Wrong!! Who has ever avowed this? Show me just one post.


Until God quickens the dead, they can not believe. They hate Him, they all things about Him. Until you realize how radically depraved we were and the unregenerate still are, you'll arrive at the same wrong conclusions until doomsday.

Look at Ezekiel 37 and how God brought to life those jumbled up, dry bones. What belief did they exercise when they came back to life? The widow woman's dead son in Luke 7, what belief did he exercise when Christ brought him back to life? What belief did Lazarus exercise when Christ called him out of his tomb?

Until you realize that regeneration is different from conversion, you'll arrive at the same wrong conclusions until doomsday.

It is once God has quickened the sinner, that they exercise 'believe on the Lord and you shall be saved', and not before.

He quickens after one believes and He demands our believing on the Son! Then He gives the gift of salvation after one has placed their in His dear Son. Ephesians 2:8 &9 "For by Grace are you saved through Faith and not of ourselves it (salvation) is the gift of God, lest any man should boast."
We are to follow God's commandments and one of those commands for salvation is to believe. But let's look again at Eph. 2:8, for by Grace ye saved through Faith. Now which word is the verb? "Saved" thus it sets the subject or syntax of the verse, so that when one gets to the prepositional phrase it is the gift, the Pronoun it relates back to the verb, which is "saved or salvation." So therefore Salvation is the gift of God. How do we obtain that gift, by Grace, but what means through Faith, so we must believe in order to be saved. Grace brings salvation and God requires everyone to Believe on the Son in order to be saved. So that salvation makes us reborn, that we become Spiritually born, why must we be spiritually born, because we are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins and devoid of spiritual things.
And this is seen for the command in John 3:
2 "he same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Notice verse 3 "except a man be born again" How does one gain the second birth, that is salvation and the second birth is also regeneration,

Now one more thing in John 3:
14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Christ was lifted up on the cross so that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, How do they not perish? They gain eternal life and what life is eternal? Spiritual life, and the spiritual life is brought about by belief. Then going to Revelation 20:
14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Notice failure to believe causes one to suffer the second death. You think that is stretch, let's see this takes us right back to John 3:
36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
Those who believe on the Son have everlasting Life, that would mean their names must be written in the book of life seen in Revelation 20 and what about those who believe not, they shall not see life, wow, right back to Revelation 20 death, that is those who died in their trespasses and sin don't see life they suffer the second death, that is eternally separated from God, why, Jesus said because they don't believe.

Now that begs the question, if God requires one to believe and scripture is very clear He does then why would He regenerate some before they are reborn by believing and not others when Jesus clearly states in John 12:32, He would Draw ελκυσω, Elkyo, now I have heard that this means to drag as a net, but according to George Ricker Berry's Greek Lexicon, this word only sometimes involves force, often not. In its use here it means to draw over, to persuade. Thus Jesus is saying He would persuade men to come to Him. How, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD.
Revelation 22:17
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
The Spirits message to all is come, the churches message to all is come, the invitation is to all to come and take the water of life freely, it is the gift of God, not of works and it is obeying God's command to believe and the Holy Spirits' persuasion to come.