No one deserved to be saved. Why the angst with Particular redemption?

[SovereignGrace]

He quickens after one believes and He demands our believing on the Son!

Bzzzzz! Wrong!! While we were dead in sins, He made us alive in Christ. It is once we were made alive in Christ, we then exercised faith, love, repentance. You are saying we were dead in Adam, yet not dead, just wounded. If we were dead in Adam(and we were), we were incapable of exercising any faith, because we were in a state of unbelief as unregenerate.

 

[thatbrian]

No one deserved to be saved. Why the angst with Particular redemption?

One reason: It's hated because it takes sovereignty and autonomy away from man. It's hated for the very same reason that Adam hated that he couldn't eat of that tree.

 

[revmwc]

Bzzzzz! Wrong!! While we were dead in sins, He made us alive in Christ. It is once we were made alive in Christ, we then exercised faith, love, repentance. You are saying we were dead in Adam, yet not dead, just wounded. If we were dead in Adam(and we were), we were incapable of exercising any faith, because we were in a state of unbelief as unregenerate.

How can that be when Jesus clearly told Nicodemus you must be born again and then stated one must believe on the Son to not perish but to have everlasting life. That life is spiritual life which comes by one believing on the Son, the Spiritual Life is regenerated, reborn, becomes everlasting after believing on the Son not before. Regeneration occurs once Faith is expressed not before. Spiritual Life Comes after believing not before. The Holy Spirit doesn't come and indwell until belief has ocurred and that is when Spiritual life is born, regenerated.

 

[revmwc]

No one deserved to be saved. Why the angst with Particular redemption?

One reason: It's hated because it takes sovereignty and autonomy away from man. It's hated for the very same reason that Adam hated that he couldn't eat of that tree.

Not one person deserves to be saved. Yet God (Christ) command to Nicodemus and thus to everyone "Believe on the Son to gain everlasting life." That life is the regenerated Spiritual life that we must have to be right with God so "Believing must come before regeneration."

 

[Internet Theologian]

Were you dead in trespasses and sins when you were born or were you born already regenerated?

One more time; Do you know the difference between the words 'can' and 'may'?

 

[SovereignGrace]

How can that be when Jesus clearly told Nicodemus you must be born again

But He never said that Nicodemus could regenerate himself...IOW, be born again of his own will/volition. You are pouring you belief system into the text. I say 'nay nay'.

and then stated one must believe on the Son to not perish but to have everlasting life.

And again...who are those who believe? Those who believe, are those who have been born of God. Until the 'birth from above', all unregenerate are in unbelief.

That life is spiritual life which comes by one believing on the Son,

Wrong again. Those who truly believe have already been born again...already have Spiritual life. You have the dead exercising belief when they can't.

the Spiritual Life is regenerated, reborn, becomes everlasting after believing on the Son not before.

Look at a newborn baby. What help did it have in being conceived. Did that egg of its own volition force the sperm to fertilize it? Did it assist its mother by partaking of the nutrients its mother supplied it, or did it say no thanks and die? What assist did it do when its mother started having contractions and then finally giving birth to that baby? Did that baby put its feet against the uterine wall and push and help the mother birth it? The answer to all of these is a resounding no. Yet, you want to believe that a new born babe in Christ(which childbirth is a suitable and applicable naturalistic example of the new birth in Christ) assisted God in helping Him birth them? Srsly?

Regeneration occurs once Faith is expressed not before.

Bzzzzz! Wrong! Faith is an expression of a regeneration that has already taken place. Regeneration=====>Repentance/Faith(both together, imo====>Salvation. Once someone has been regenerated, they exercise faith/belief. Not before.

Spiritual Life Comes after believing not before.

I am not being mean, so forgive me if you take this the wrong way...but the next God-honoring post you post, it will be your first. It is always after man does something that God does something. Not once have you acknowledged that it is God who first initiates the saving, and not man. Man hates Him. Man wants nothing to do with Him. Man would rather spend an eternity in hell than bow the knee to Him. I am talking about sinners in an unregenerate state here. That is why it is those who have been born of God(see regeneration) who love Him.

The Holy Spirit doesn't come and indwell until belief has ocurred and that is when Spiritual life is born, regenerated.

The Spirit comes in and takes out the stony heart(unbelieving...cold and dead as a stone) and puts in a fleshly heart, a heart of love.

The sooner you learn to quit patting man on the back and bowing and giving thanks to God for HIS(not yours, mine, or anyone else's) salvation.

 

[Revmitchell]

B You are saying we were dead in Adam, yet not dead, just wounded.

Where did he use those words anywhere in this thread?

 

[Revmitchell]

But He never said that Nicodemus could regenerate himself...

No one has suggested that he did. This is a strawman

 

[InTheLight]

Bzzzzz! Wrong!! While we were dead in sins, He made us alive in Christ. It is once we were made alive in Christ, we then exercised faith, love, repentance. You are saying we were dead in Adam, yet not dead, just wounded. If we were dead in Adam(and we were), we were incapable of exercising any faith, because we were in a state of unbelief as unregenerate.

You say we were made alive in Christ, then were given the gift of faith, and then were enabled to believe.

But the Bible says we were made alive AFTER we believed.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
John 20:31

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[revmwc]

But He never said that Nicodemus could regenerate himself...IOW, be born again of his own will/volition. You are pouring you belief system into the text. I say 'nay nay'.


And again...who are those who believe? Those who believe, are those who have been born of God. Until the 'birth from above', all unregenerate are in unbelief.


Wrong again. Those who truly believe have already been born again...already have Spiritual life. You have the dead exercising belief when they can't.



Look at a newborn baby. What help did it have in being conceived. Did that egg of its own volition force the sperm to fertilize it? Did it assist its mother by partaking of the nutrients its mother supplied it, or did it say no thanks and die? What assist did it do when its mother started having contractions and then finally giving birth to that baby? Did that baby put its feet against the uterine wall and push and help the mother birth it? The answer to all of these is a resounding no. Yet, you want to believe that a new born babe in Christ(which childbirth is a suitable and applicable naturalistic example of the new birth in Christ) assisted God in helping Him birth them? Srsly?


Bzzzzz! Wrong! Faith is an expression of a regeneration that has already taken place. Regeneration=====>Repentance/Faith(both together, imo====>Salvation. Once someone has been regenerated, they exercise faith/belief. Not before.


I am not being mean, so forgive me if you take this the wrong way...but the next God-honoring post you post, it will be your first. It is always after man does something that God does something. Not once have you acknowledged that it is God who first initiates the saving, and not man. Man hates Him. Man wants nothing to do with Him. Man would rather spend an eternity in hell than bow the knee to Him. I am talking about sinners in an unregenerate state here. That is why it is those who have been born of God(see regeneration) who love Him.



The Spirit comes in and takes out the stony heart(unbelieving...cold and dead as a stone) and puts in a fleshly heart, a heart of love.

The sooner you learn to quit patting man on the back and bowing and giving thanks to God for HIS(not yours, mine, or anyone else's) salvation.

Let me see you state man has nothing not one thing to do with being born again. Regeneration is=spiritual birth, that would be the Spirit of man being born, and you say God brings it to life before one believes and yet Jesus said to Nicodemus, ye must be Born again, then He emphasized the means further in John 3, first in verse 14 He makes a comparison with the Jews in the wilderness, when the serpent would bite someone and the cure look upon the serpent on the pole. Did Moses go around choosing certain ones to lift their heads and make them look up? No they had to make a conscious choice.

Let's look Numbers 21:
6 "And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

Jesus shows us the type here, who could live, those who hose to look up at the serpent, right? Any man that is person who was bitten. The offer was to all who were bitten, all of the Human race who are bitten by sin and dead in trespasses and sins, can call upon the Lord, right? Everyone ever born except for the one who was hung upon the tree He is the one we look too. If they chose to look upon the one who hung upon the tree what would occur for those bitten? They would live. Same with salvation, Jesus was to be hung upon the Tree that is the cross of Calvary. Whoever chooses to believe that is look to the one who hung upon the tree, will have life eternal. That is they will have their Spiritual life born for all eternity, this shows first one must make a choice and two once that choice is made it is for all eternity, it can't be lost. If verse 15 weren't enough Jesus made it even more clear in verse 16 of John 3, whosoever that is anyone who chooses to believe will not perish but have life eternal. Then He reiterated it yet again in verse 18 of John 3

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

He that believeth is not condemned that is whoever looks up to the one on the cross by choosing to look up, they are not condemned, but those who will not look upon the one on the cross are condemned already. In Numbers we are not told if any choose not to look, but if they chose not to they were going to die, in fact they were condemned to die the moment they were bitten and unless they looked upon the one hanging on the pole, they would perish. Again these are Jesus' words not mine, "whosoever believeth," Those "who believe" He places squarely on the individual to make the choice to believe. Jesus says it clearly those who believe have eternal life.

If you see different then show where in these verses He regenerates them that is gives them life eternal before they believe, for regeneration is New spiritual Life which comes and regenerates them. Jesus says it comes by believing. So too did Paul and Silas.

 

[Iconoclast]

You say we were made alive in Christ, then were given the gift of faith, and then were enabled to believe.

But the Bible says we were made alive AFTER we believed.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
John 20:31

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

,It is not a time line. It speaks of the results of believing and the means. ...the written word of God.

 

[InTheLight]

,It is not a time line. It speaks of the results of believing and the means. ...the written word of God.

A plain reading of the scripture shows an IF-THEN statement. If you believe, then you have life.

It's plain as day. I don't know how you can deny it.

No matter how you try to read this verse it does not say you are made alive, then you believe.

 

[percho]

He quickens after one believes and He demands our believing on the Son! Then He gives the gift of salvation after one has placed their in His dear Son. Ephesians 2:8 &9 "For by Grace are you saved through Faith and not of ourselves it (salvation) is the gift of God, lest any man should boast."
We are to follow God's commandments and one of those commands for salvation is to believe. But let's look again at Eph. 2:8, for by Grace ye saved through Faith. Now which word is the verb? "Saved" thus it sets the subject or syntax of the verse, so that when one gets to the prepositional phrase it is the gift, the Pronoun it relates back to the verb, which is "saved or salvation." So therefore Salvation is the gift of God. How do we obtain that gift, by Grace, but what means through Faith, so we must believe in order to be saved. Grace brings salvation and God requires everyone to Believe on the Son in order to be saved. So that salvation makes us reborn, that we become Spiritually born, why must we be spiritually born, because we are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins and devoid of spiritual things.
And this is seen for the command in John 3:
2 "he same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Notice verse 3 "except a man be born again" How does one gain the second birth, that is salvation and the second birth is also regeneration,

Now one more thing in John 3:
14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Christ was lifted up on the cross so that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, How do they not perish? They gain eternal life and what life is eternal? Spiritual life, and the spiritual life is brought about by belief. Then going to Revelation 20:
14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Notice failure to believe causes one to suffer the second death. You think that is stretch, let's see this takes us right back to John 3:
36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
Those who believe on the Son have everlasting Life, that would mean their names must be written in the book of life seen in Revelation 20 and what about those who believe not, they shall not see life, wow, right back to Revelation 20 death, that is those who died in their trespasses and sin don't see life they suffer the second death, that is eternally separated from God, why, Jesus said because they don't believe.

Now that begs the question, if God requires one to believe and scripture is very clear He does then why would He regenerate some before they are reborn by believing and not others when Jesus clearly states in John 12:32, He would Draw ελκυσω, Elkyo, now I have heard that this means to drag as a net, but according to George Ricker Berry's Greek Lexicon, this word only sometimes involves force, often not. In its use here it means to draw over, to persuade. Thus Jesus is saying He would persuade men to come to Him. How, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD.
Revelation 22:17
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
The Spirits message to all is come, the churches message to all is come, the invitation is to all to come and take the water of life freely, it is the gift of God, not of works and it is obeying God's command to believe and the Holy Spirits' persuasion to come.

I agree it is salvation that is the gift of God. And that it comes by grace. And the grace, came, through faith. BTW I believe the tense of came to be correct.

For by grace are ye saved through (τῆς the) faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: The very same faith spoken of in Gal 3:23 and 25 and spoken of as before, the faith, came and after, the faith came. Faith that is relative to being justified, that is being made righteous. V 24.

What is, the faith, that brings the righteousness of God?

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. The faith in Eph 2:8 by which we are made righteous of Gal 3:25 is relative to the obedience of one of Rom 5:19 The obedience of faith. Jesus conceived by the Holy Spirit, brought forth of the virgin Mary, became the obedience of faith. Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Even being the very Son of the living God, Jesus learned (τὴν the) obedience. Phil 3:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. After learning the obedience through sufferings he became obedient unto death even the death of the cross.

That is obedience of faith. Whose faith? Who believed the Son born of woman would be obedient unto the giving of his life, of the flesh, which is in the blood, unto death even the death of the cross for redemption?

Phil 2:9 διόdió, dee-o'; from G1223 and G3739; through which thing, i.e. consequently:—for which cause, therefore, wherefore.

The Son of God, Jesus was dead but because of, the obedience, to the faith of God; God by the Spirit quickened that which in the flesh had given his life a ransom for many. The grace of God. The grace of God is the grace of life. Eternal life, of which we presently are heirs thereof, not yet inheritors. Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Declared righteous by grace to the one, who had been obedient unto death. By the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom 5:19

Faith does not come from man. JMHO sorry for the rant.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Where did he use those words anywhere in this thread?

He said we were dead in Adam. I agree with that. He then turned around and said after we believe, we are regenerated. The dead can not believe the things of God because they are Spiritually understood, and they don't want to, seeing the dead in sins hate Him. Romans 8:7 & 1 Corinthians 2:14.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No one has suggested that he did. This is a strawman

He says we are regenerated after we believe. He is saying that Nicodemus had to do the same thing. By deduction, that is what he is espousing.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You say we were made alive in Christ, then were given the gift of faith, and then were enabled to believe.

But the Bible says we were made alive AFTER we believed.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
John 20:31

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

I do not disagree with that verse in the least. Hearing with the inward man is what quickens...or better...being quickened is what makes one truly hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Pay attention and come to Me; listen, so that you will live.[Isaiah 55:3]

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.[John 5:24-25]

That is why the bible is replete with the saying "He who has ears, let him hear." That shows that not everyone can truly hear the gospel. They don't want to hear it, seeing they hate God.

 

[Internet Theologian]

He says we are regenerated after we believe. He is saying that Nicodemus had to do the same thing. By deduction, that is what he is espousing.

It's amazing and remarkable that so many cannot see the implications that are so plain to see. They need a 'word for word' statement. It's tragic when this lack of insight is also apparent in exegeting Scripture.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Let me see you state man has nothing not one thing to do with being born again.

Yup.

Regeneration is=spiritual birth, that would be the Spirit of man being born, and you say God brings it to life before one believes and yet Jesus said to Nicodemus, ye must be Born again,

Precisely. Why can't you grasp this????? Regeneration is NOT salvation. Regeneration leads TO salvation.

then He emphasized the means further in John 3, first in verse 14 He makes a comparison with the Jews in the wilderness, when the serpent would bite someone and the cure look upon the serpent on the pole. Did Moses go around choosing certain ones to lift their heads and make them look up? No they had to make a conscious choice.

And who looked at the serpent? Unbelievers? Nope. Those who ALREADY believed...yet many of those Jews did not believe and perished in the wilderness.

Let's look Numbers 21:
6 "And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

The believers looked, the unbelievers died. Period. End of story.

Jesus shows us the type here, who could live, those who hose to look up at the serpent, right?

Right.

Any man that is person who was bitten. The offer was to all who were bitten, all of the Human race who are bitten by sin and dead in trespasses and sins, can call upon the Lord, right?

Anybody can call upon Him, yes. But those who hate Him won't. That my point. Ppl hate Him, yet you think they have an innate ability to call upon Someone they hate. Those that love Him have been born of Him FIRST. He changes their hatred of Him to loving Him and then they call upon Him. Regeneration leads to salvation.

Everyone ever born except for the one who was hung upon the tree He is the one we look too.

Yes. But why don't many look to Him? They hate Him.

If they chose to look upon the one who hung upon the tree what would occur for those bitten? They would live. Same with salvation, Jesus was to be hung upon the Tree that is the cross of Calvary. Whoever chooses to believe that is look to the one who hung upon the tree, will have life eternal.

It is always after someone does something that God does something with you, ain't it?

Why don't ppl look to Christ?? BECAUSE THEY HATE HIM. Would the Jews look towards Adolf Hitler during the holocaust? No. Why? Hitler is their enemy. The unregenerate hate Christ, want nothing to do with God. They will never choose, of their own volition/will, to look to He who hung upon a tree.

That is they will have their Spiritual life born for all eternity, this shows first one must make a choice and two once that choice is made it is for all eternity, it can't be lost. If verse 15 weren't enough Jesus made it even more clear in verse 16 of John 3, whosoever that is anyone who chooses to believe will not perish but have life eternal. Then He reiterated it yet again in verse 18 of John 3

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

He that believeth is not condemned that is whoever looks up to the one on the cross by choosing to look up, they are not condemned, but those who will not look upon the one on the cross are condemned already. In Numbers we are not told if any choose not to look, but if they chose not to they were going to die, in fact they were condemned to die the moment they were bitten and unless they looked upon the one hanging on the pole, they would perish. Again these are Jesus' words not mine, "whosoever believeth," Those "who believe" He places squarely on the individual to make the choice to believe. Jesus says it clearly those who believe have eternal life.

If you see different then show where in these verses He regenerates them that is gives them life eternal before they believe, for regeneration is New spiritual Life which comes and regenerates them. Jesus says it comes by believing. So too did Paul and Silas.

It is always what you choose ain't it? Look at John 3...

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

The unregenerate will not choose to come to the Light, because they hate that Light. They love darkness...not Light. Those who live by the truth(present tense, already ongoing) comes into the Light. God first quickens the unregenerate, they then exercise faith and repentance and are saved. They are also born of love and that is the heart transplant spoken of in Ezekiel 11:19 and Ezekiel 36:26.

I will close with John 1...

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.[John 1:11-13]

Now, who are those who chose to believe? Those who were...and are..born of God. That's the context of that passage.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It's amazing and remarkable that so many cannot see the implications that are so plain to see. They need a 'word for word' statement. It's tragic when this lack of insight is also apparent in exegeting Scripture.

Yes. It was like the 'Two gospels' thread that was on here once. They were espousing Paul preaching a gospel to the Gentiles and Peter preaching another gospel to the Jews. Yikes, yuck & ewwww!! Cautious Frown Thumbsdown Eek

 

[Internet Theologian]

Yes. It was like the 'Two gospels' thread that was on here once. They were espousing Paul preaching a gospel to the Gentiles and Peter preaching another gospel to the Jews. Yikes, yuck & ewwww!! Cautious Frown Thumbsdown Eek

Well, we better hurry up and believe 'both' of them just in case there may be a drop of Jewish blood in our veins. Would hate to miss out on eternal life due to a technical error.