No pastors in the Bible

[Revmitchell]

John you obviously covet the title pastor. It does not matter what a Latin term means, the point is that it is NOT in the Bible and certainly not an office. There is no office of a pastor anywhere to be found in the Bible. This is so simple that only those who have much to lose cannot see this. A pastor has removed the only office given by the Holy Spirit in the Bible and has taken it upon himself.

Do you use the term "Trinity"?

 

[alvin]

John you obviously covet the title pastor. It does not matter what a Latin term means, the point is that it is NOT in the Bible and certainly not an office. There is no office of a pastor anywhere to be found in the Bible. This is so simple that only those who have much to lose cannot see this. A pastor has removed the only office given by the Holy Spirit in the Bible and has taken it upon himself.

BTW, was the Bible written in Greek or Latin? We translate ποιμένας everywhere in the Bible to be shepherd until we get to Ephesians 4:11 and we use a new word, a Latin word...we call it "pastor" and from this single tranlations we have developed the idea of the "office of the pastor" and used this office to supplant the Elders.

 

[alvin]

And you have removed the word "pastor" from your Bible and set up your idea of eldership as an idol.

Again...the word "pastor" is in zero Greek manuscripts. None. I did not remove it because it was never there in the first place.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

And you have removed the word "pastor" from your Bible and set up your idea of eldership as an idol.

Unfortunately, I believe you have it pegged.

 

[alvin]

Do you use the term "Trinity"?

Yes. Is this another attempt to try to ignore the current discussion?

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes. Is this another attempt to try to ignore the current discussion?

Where in the Bible do you find it?

 

[alvin]

Unfortunately, I believe you have it pegged.

Break open your Greek Testaments and show me the Latin word in there. Show me the word "pastor." It is not there and never was.

 

[alvin]

Where in the Bible do you find it?

I'm sorry, where do I find what?

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm sorry, where do I find what?

Where do you find the term Trinity in the Bible? I mean Trinity is not in scripture and you are ok with using that but pastor is not ok because it is not found in scripture. Do you not see the hypocrisy in your condemnation here?

 

[John of Japan]

John you obviously covet the title pastor. It does not matter what a Latin term means, the point is that it is NOT in the Bible and certainly not an office. There is no office of a pastor anywhere to be found in the Bible. This is so simple that only those who have much to lose cannot see this. A pastor has removed the only office given by the Holy Spirit in the Bible and has taken it upon himself.

I gave verses showing the function of shepherding was taught by Jesus, the "Chief Shepherd." You ignored them. Pastor is shepherd and shepherd is pastor. By denying this you are disputing the plain Word of God, "doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings" (1 Tim . 6:4).

I don't "covet" the title pastor. It was given to me by God and so I "magnify mine office." Several weeks ago as pastor I performed the funeral for Katsu, a believer at the request of Tomiro, a believer. Sunday as pastor I picked up Ushiro for church, an ex-drug pusher. As pastor and linguist I will be doing a favor for Mrs. T. this week. As pastor I'm trying to get Ushiro to invite his friend Ishikawa to church, a former gangster. I often counsel believers as pastor. Thursday after having a Bible study with Ushiro he took me next door to pray as pastor with a handicapped man.

So you tell me, what is wrong with this? Which of these elements of my "pastoring" is un-Biblical?

 

[alvin]

Where do you find the term Trinity in the Bible? I mean Trinity is not in scripture and you are ok with using that but pastor is not ok because it is not found in scripture. Do you not see the hypocrisy in your condemnation here?

Becasue Paul and Peter were very clear on this issue, they left no room for debate and again...Elders are a creation of the Holy Spirit! Pastors are a creation of man. Are you aware that not only is the word pastor not found in the Bible but is never found in any use in ancient Greece. Classical Greek never translated ποιμένας as pastor and Koine Greek also never translated ποιμένας pastor. Always shepherd...and the only shepherd in the church, apart from the Great Shepherd...is Elders. WHy is this hard to accept?

 

[Revmitchell]

Why does it matter? ( sounds like Hillary) It matters because the trials of the ministry are very real and discipleship can be very difficult even in this country. Some men labor in this country and in the foreign mission fields for years faithfully with no converts and no disciples. Only someone with experience could know the level of difficulties in doing this.

To so smuggly say that you reject what they say as an excuse that there is no one else in a particular mission field that is qualified to be an elder shows you do not understand the difficulties of shepherding a church and reaching people in foreign mission fields.

When these men (of which some are on this board) say that in their mission field there is no one who is qualified, then we need to show these faithful men at least an ounce of respect and trust that they are both being honest and know their own mission field. Of which you personally have no knowledge of.

I am greatly offended at your disrespect of these men on this board and their mission fields. You are talking about things you know nothing of and in doing so you show your lack of experience. Someone with 40 years of experience would never talk to these men in that manner. Someone with 40 years experience knows, because of his experience, the trial and difficulties. You have none of that knowledge.

I suggest you take a step back, apologize to these faithful men that you have disrespected and admit your true lack of experience and knowledge about ministry and their particular mission field.

That is what someone with 40 years experience would do. How about you?

Alvin this is worth repeating. You desperately need it.

 

[Revmitchell]

Becasue Paul and Peter were very clear on this issue, they left no room for debate and again...Elders are a creation of the Holy Spirit! Pastors are a creation of man. Are you aware that not only is the word pastor not found in the Bible but is never found in any use in ancient Greece. Classical Greek never translated ποιμένας as pastor and Koine Greek also never translated ποιμένας pastor. Always shepherd...and the only shepherd in the church, apart from the Great Shepherd...is Elders. WHy is this hard to accept?

What is hard to accept is your willful ignorance of the word Pastor just to justify your personal agenda.

 

[John of Japan]

Break open your Greek Testaments and show me the Latin word in there. Show me the word "pastor." It is not there and never was.

Your error here is called in linguistics the root fallacy, which is the idea that the origin of the word gives it its modern meaning. The word "pastor" does have an etymology from the Latin word, but that proves nothing as to whether or not it should be used to translate the Greek word. The word "pastor" has been an English word for centuries. By insisting on going back to the Latin word, you are revealing a grave lack in your linguistic knowledge.

 

[Revmitchell]

Break open your Greek Testaments and show me the Latin word in there. Show me the word "pastor." It is not there and never was.

You need to read Dr. Carsons book on fallacies. It will clear this up for you.

http://www.christianbook.com/exegetical-fallacies-second-edition-d-a-carson/9780801020865/pd/20867

 

[Jerome]

Classical Greek never translated ποιμένας as pastor and Koine Greek also never translated ποιμένας pastor.

Huh?:null::null: :null: :null:

 

[alvin]

I gave verses showing the function of shepherding was taught by Jesus, the "Chief Shepherd." You ignored them. Pastor is shepherd and shepherd is pastor. By denying this you are disputing the plain Word of God, "doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings" (1 Tim . 6:4).

I don't "covet" the title pastor. It was given to me by God and so I "magnify mine office." Several weeks ago as pastor I performed the funeral for Katsu, a believer at the request of Tomiro, a believer. Sunday as pastor I picked up Ushiro for church, an ex-drug pusher. As pastor and linguist I will be doing a favor for Mrs. T. this week. As pastor I'm trying to get Ushiro to invite his friend Ishikawa to church, a former gangster. I often counsel believers as pastor. Thursday after having a Bible study with Ushiro he took me next door to pray as pastor with a handicapped man.

So you tell me, what is wrong with this? Which of these elements of my "pastoring" is un-Biblical?

Yes...please review and then tell me who has been given the task of shepherding the Church.

I Peter 5:1-5 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd (ποιμάνατε) the flock of God among you, exercising oversight (ἐπισκοποῦντες) not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God;

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

WHo are the shepherds? Pastors or Elders. Are pastors even mentioned? Of course not. Elders and only Elders. This is not an opinion, all I have done is quote scriptues that you should know and teach.

 

[alvin]

Alvin this is worth repeating. You desperately need it.

This reminds me of Roman Catholics pointing out all the good they do to cover for all the evil they do. What you say has absolutely nothing to do with pastor supplanting the Holy Spirit appointed Elders of the church.

 

[alvin]

You need to read Dr. Carsons book on fallacies. It will clear this up for you.

http://www.christianbook.com/exegetical-fallacies-second-edition-d-a-carson/9780801020865/pd/20867

I think I will stick with the Bible to uncover fallacies thank you.

 

[Revmitchell]

This reminds me of Roman Catholics pointing out all the good they do to cover for all the evil they do. What you say has absolutely nothing to do with pastor supplanting the Holy Spirit appointed Elders of the church.

And .......thanks for confirming what I said. you have zero experience in the ministry. None zilch. And quite frankly does you mother know you are on the computer?