Objections to Calvinism

[steaver]

steaver

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

I was expecting the "all does not mean all" Calvinist card to be played. But maybe some other explanation can be drummed up.

This sarcastic response is why you make no progress. you are not looking for any answers...you speak of an answer being "drummed up" as if it has not crossed your mind that many have supplied the answers already...You just reject truth at all costs is what comes across.



...[/QUOTE]

I have made no secret of my conclusions concerning Calvinism. I have studied and prayed over the controversy for some fifteen years, I am convinced Calvinism is false, I know the truth of this issue, I am not seeking it any longer. If I am wrong, it will take the Holy Spirit telling me I am wrong, thus far, He tells me to reject it.

So I am not looking for a practical, even logical, answer to my question, for I know none exist and certainly your long explanation fell totally flat. Of course that is my opinion, maybe some Cals find it satisfactory, although I believe they would be fooling themselves.

Steaver...your turn..explain how God then...loves Satan in your theology

I don't believe He does.

God so loved the world that He gave Jesus Christ that those workers of iniquity (for all have sinned) who believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[salzer mtn]

I have made no secret of my conclusions concerning Calvinism. I have studied and prayed over the controversy for some fifteen years, I am convinced Calvinism is false, I know the truth of this issue, I am not seeking it any longer. If I am wrong, it will take the Holy Spirit telling me I am wrong, thus far, He tells me to reject it.

God speaks to us by his word, be careful, the devil may be whispering in your ear and telling you Calvinism is wrong.

 

[Inspector Javert]

God speaks to us by his word, be careful, the devil may be whispering in your ear and telling you Calvinism is correct.

 

[convicted1]

Webdog

Hello WD.

Steaver does not really want an answer. He just wants to object to anything posted.

But since you asked I will respond to your post:thumbs:



I do not see it as a yes no question.

I see this as this;

We have a clear declaration in scripture;

God hates all the workers of iniquity....a true statement.

Yet in love God saves a multitude of sinners In Christ....also a true statement.

I see it this way-

Jesus entered into His mediatorial role prior to the creation of the world, or creation could not have taken place.

God saw all mankind as fallen and dead in Adam...and condemned.

hence God hates all the workers of iniquity:thumbs:


In love The Father gives a multitude of such sinners to the Son...even considered as fallen and yet sinners deserving if His Divine wrath.....

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

While Jesus was already given as our mediator and Surety....all the events have to unfold in the fullness of time.
This is where the recent disagreement with the hypercal PB's was about.

We are conceived in Sin, and go about speaking lies from the womb.we are children of wrath and disobedience ...even as others eph2:1-4...But God- so to this question...God does hate all the workers of iniquity.....But In Christ he sees them for he has predestined them to become...conformed to the Image of The Son.
They no longer live in the practice of sin...1jn 3:8....but instead are called to law keeping holiness in every aspect of their lives.

They can no longer be characterized as workers of iniquity, but now they are saints , growing in grace as The blood of the cross has become their propitiation.....anywhere they are found in the world.

the wrath of God is revealed from heaven still...all not under the covering and propitiation of our Great High Priest, Surety, and Mediator..remain under the wrath.

So I do not see it as a simple yes/no....:thumbs:

 

[steaver]

God speaks to us by his word, be careful, the devil may be whispering in your ear and telling you Calvinism is correct.

Yeah, they always forget that statement can go both ways.

However, according to Calvinism, I can only believe what the Holy Spirit causes me to believe. So when Calvinist make fun for one not believing, they are making fun of the Holy Spirit, not me.

In fact, I have no idea why they even try to persuade anyone through long expositions. If they truly believe what Calvinism teaches then it is totally up to the Holy Spirit to make people believe, matters not how much time they spend putting together arguments, and even if one does believe, their arguments get no credit either in their theology, it is all Scripture plus the Holy Spirit which convicts, not any expositions such as TULIP.

 

[steaver]

Webdog

Hello WD.

Steaver does not really want an answer. He just wants to object to anything posted:thumbs:

But since you asked I will respond to your post:thumbs:



I do not see it as a yes no question.

I see this as this;

We have a clear declaration in scripture;

God hates all the workers of iniquity....a true statement.

Yet in love God saves a multitude of sinners In Christ....also a true statement.

I see it this way-

Jesus entered into His mediatorial role prior to the creation of the world, or creation could not have taken place.

God saw all mankind as fallen and dead in Adam...and condemned.

hence God hates all the workers of iniquity:thumbs:

So your position is, before Creation, God look down through time at what was coming in the garden of Eden and seen all mankind as fallen and dead in Adam...and condemned?

 

[salzer mtn]

Yeah, they always forget that statement can go both ways.

However, according to Calvinism, I can only believe what the Holy Spirit causes me to believe. So when Calvinist make fun for one not believing, they are making fun of the Holy Spirit, not me.

In fact, I have no idea why they even try to persuade anyone through long expositions. If they truly believe what Calvinism teaches then it is totally up to the Holy Spirit to make people believe, matters not how much time they spend putting together arguments, and even if one does believe, their arguments get no credit either in their theology, it is all Scripture plus the Holy Spirit which convicts, not any expositions such as TULIP.

Steaver when a person starts listening to voices or even his own conscience instead of the word of God the devil will have a field day. Steaver you are like a pen hooker at a cattle sale. You prod people with your free will stick until they kick back and then you try to play innocent.

 

[Rippon]

Steaver when a person starts listening to voices or even his own conscience instead of the word of God the devil will have a field day. Steaver you are like a pen hooker at a cattle sale. You prod people with your free will stick until they kick back and then you try to play innocent.

Very true.

 

[Rippon]

What a mean Calvinist you are C1.

 

[steaver]

Steaver when a person starts listening to voices or even his own conscience instead of the word of God the devil will have a field day. Steaver you are like a pen hooker at a cattle sale. You prod people with your free will stick until they kick back and then you try to play innocent.

Always a straw man erected with you Cals. why is that? Who said I heard voices? It's called a "conviction" and this happens when one's spirit, being joined with God's Holy Spirit, is drawn to believe an application of Scripture in a particular way. Please, stop with the straw men Cals. Really, stick with what is actually being said and try to argue the real points being made.

 

[InTheLight]

Yeah, they always forget that statement can go both ways.

However, according to Calvinism, I can only believe what the Holy Spirit causes me to believe.

I thank God that he predestined me to be a non-Cal!

 

[Iconoclast]

I thank God that he predestined me to be a non-Cal!

wrong again God doesn't have to predestine people to be non cals they're born that way

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I thank God that he predestined me to be a non-Cal!

NO....he predistined you to be one of His own......Calvinism is just a way to view Gods plan.

 

[MB]

Calvinist are unable to disprove the O.P. so they do what they have always done. They ridicule it as if they know what they are talking about. It just proves they are all stumped with your objections. Augustine worked so hard on his ism. Too bad he didn't understand God's word enough to even comment on it . Sadly Calvinist seem to do the same. They mix the words of man with the gospel giving men the final say instead of God.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinist are unable to disprove the O.P. so they do what they have always done. They ridicule it as if they know what they are talking about. It just proves they are all stumped with your objections. Augustine worked so hard on his ism. Too bad he didn't understand God's word enough to even comment on it . Sadly Calvinist seem to do the same. They mix the words of man with the gospel giving men the final say instead of God.
MB

perhaps you could offer some scripture so we know what you are trying to say rather than this rambling critique:thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

perhaps you could offer some scripture so we know what you are trying to say rather than this rambling critique:thumbs:

I got to know a number of MB's beliefs in 2008.

He thinks that election doesn't have any salvific value.

"If you stay with scripture you'd have to deny total depravity."

"In order to have irresistible grace we'd have to throw out most of scripture."

And one of his favorite Bible commentators is John Knotts!

 

[Iconoclast]

I got to know a number of MB's beliefs in 2008.

He thinks that election doesn't have any salvific value.

"If you stay with scripture you'd have to deny total depravity."

"In order to have irresistible grace we'd have to throw out most of scripture."

And one of his favorite Bible commentators is John Knotts!

A wrong view of the fall accounts for 85 percent of error in theology....everything seems to flow from it.

I would not mind people offering some disagreement , however many seem to be unable to mount any serious objection. These drive by posts when not supported by anything only show that there is nor solid position that can stand against the grace of God as expressed in scripture.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[PreachTony]

God is not responsible for mans sin .

I agree, God is not responsible for man's sin. Yet, under Calvinist theology, man is only capable of repentance IF God grants him the grace to repent.

Consider this allegory: If I were to lock a man in a room with nothing at all, just four walls, a floor, and a ceiling, and told him to make bread, but I never gave him the ingredients to make bread, could I hold the man accountable for not making bread?

That, to me, is the argument of Calvinism. Man is incapable of repenting without God granting him the grace to repent, yet there are some men the God does not grant the grace to repent unto, yet God still holds those men accountable for their sins.

we are told in Scripture that men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil

Yes, men love darkness rather than light. Is that all mankind? Or is that only the non-Elect? Or do even the Elect love darkness up until the time God illumines them unto repentance?

If all mankind loves darkness rather than light, then how did Job, a pre-Messiah, pre-Hebrew, become a "perfect and upright" man? How did Enoch, a pre-Messiah, pre-Law patriarch, find the means to "walk with God" to the point that God "took him?" How did Melchizedek, a non-Hebrew priest-king of Salem, find himself close enough to God that Abram honored him with a tenth of all his goods and later writers used him as a type and shadow of the coming Christ and His eternal priesthood?

it's the love of sin that sinners have that keeps them from repenting and believing in the gospel .

I thought it was God's grace that allowed men to repent...conversely, it would be a lack of God's grace keeping men from repenting. See my bread allegory above.

 

[Rippon]

I agree, God is not responsible for man's sin.

Good. We agree on that one.

Yet, under Calvinist theology, man is only capable of repentance IF God grants him the grace to repent.

True.

Man is incapable of repenting without God granting him the grace to repent,

True again.

yet there are some men the God does not grant the grace to repent unto, yet God still holds those men accountable for their sins.

Are you suggesting that God is unjust in that? Remember He is perfectly righteous and owes no one anything. He is not obligated to anyone. You acknowledged earlier that all people are responsible for their sins. Do you think someone should get off the hook of accountability because God hasn't granted them faith and repentance?

 

[steaver]

A wrong view of the fall accounts for 85 percent of error in theology....everything seems to flow from it.

I would not mind people offering some disagreement , however many seem to be unable to mount any serious objection. These drive by posts when not supported by anything only show that there is nor solid position that can stand against the grace of God as expressed in scripture.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I totally agree, but from a non-Cal perspective. IMO, No Cal has ever been able to show from scripture how Adam was "Totally Depraved" after he sinned. In fact, I believe the scripture shows Adam was not totally depraved after he sinned. All have sinned is what the scripture states, not all are totally depraved.