OK... I still have these nagging questions:

[skypair]

Skypair;
Servants are not always unbelieving Jews. Paul, himself a Jew but a believer, referred to himself many times as a servant. He also referred to gentile believers as servants. Therefore, to "rightly divide" this passage by saying it is exclusively for Jews is in error. But you and Rufus continue on. I will try to stay out of it. And much more dizzy ride is happening elsewhere in this thread for me. See ya later bro!

You're right -- I forgot to specify IN THE KoH PARABLES which is what Rufus cited. Sorry. Now think it again, K?

skypair

 

[skypair]

What would make you say that, other than the belief that God would never threaten a disobedient believer with Hell?

CONTEXT, friend. That's always the "clincher" for me. Jesus was talking to the Pharisees about "sitting down in the kingdom," right? When would that possibly be? The MK! Abraham and all them are going to be resurrected to real bodies and the Pharisees will NOT.

skypair

 

[Accountable]

From 1st Cor. 1:

1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

Sounds like Paul is definitely addressing saved folks here. He calls these people "brothers" and "infants in Christ", not "infants out of Christ". He then goes on to accuse them of quarreling and claiming to follow different men, the cause of the divisions.

So, at least some of the trouble makers were christians.

But, I still don't see anything that demands exclusion from a 1000 year earthly kingdom.

Les

You have made a step in the right direction. He is dealing with the brethren. Are they not the "brethren" who could "suffer loss?" But be saved "so as by fire?"

 

[Accountable]

What/who is a "Silly goose?"

I would have said "Silly Rabbit, TRICKS are for kids!:laugh:

 

[av1611jim]

Nah. Go back and rethink that. If that were so, the Catholic church would have been destroyed long ago.

skypair

Not neccessarily true brother. Paul was speaking to a local church. The RCC doesn't fit this assumption of yours.

 

[Accountable]

Amen brother. Nor does it guarantee that all will be unified in doctrine. Mid-trib, post-trib, pre-trib, no-trib, pre-mil, post-mil, a-mil, etc. But all are Christ's who believe as it is written.

I once new a country preacher who preached the thruth. On the subject of pre, mis or post trib, he never could decide. He couldn't read very well but did the best he could as an old farmer. One friend was pre-trib,another mis and another post.
He finally determined that he was PAN-trib. I laughed when he told me what pan-trib was. He said, and I do quote: I believe that it will all "PAN" out!

To my knowledge, he never made a decision on where to stand. At least he was honest enough to say he didn't know.

To some here, he can't be saved because his beliefe on this issue is contrary to truth. Sad. He believed that Jesus died for his sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day. I guess to some of you this wasn't enough to be saved. He was "divided" from the brethren on this one subject.

 

[av1611jim]

You're right -- I forgot to specify IN THE KoH PARABLES which is what Rufus cited. Sorry. Now think it again, K?

skypair

The KoH parables most times if not all times are addressed to believers. I lost the specifics in this dizzy thread. It was moving so fast there for a while. Which passage do you say is NOT to believers?

 

[Accountable]

RUFUS --- these "children of the kingdom" are JEWS. "Weeping and gnashing" is for unbelieving OT JEWS.

What did I just say?? Oh yeah --- these are JEWS. "Weeping and gnashing" is for unbelieving OT JEWS.

Say again? these "children of the kingdom" are JEWS. "Weeping and gnashing" is for OT JEWS. How is it you continually condemn the GENTILE CHURCH to the punishment unbelieving OT JEWS?? Oh yeah -- you don't know any better. "Servants" are OT Jews.

skypair

QUESTION just for you.....

Do you believe that you will hear well done, good and faithful servant?
Will any Christian hear these words uttered?

 

[James_Newman]

CONTEXT, friend. That's always the "clincher" for me. Jesus was talking to the Pharisees about "sitting down in the kingdom," right? When would that possibly be? The MK! Abraham and all them are going to be resurrected to real bodies and the Pharisees will NOT.

skypair

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus is speaking to the twelve:

Matthew 10:1-5
1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

and the temple in 1cor 3 is the church.

 

[npetreley]

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

The "fear" part is just advice to put things in perspective. The comparison is only for contrast -- men can only kill your body -- God can do much worse. It isn't a warning to fear God, it is a reason NOT to fear men. That's why it is followed immediately by reassurance that God will take care of you and you have nothing to fear.

But then you ME folks are addicted to fear and legalism, so you'll probably never understand that.

Now that you've been pwned, maybe you'll get back to Paul.

 

[Amy.G]

I once new a country preacher who preached the thruth. On the subject of pre, mis or post trib, he never could decide. He couldn't read very well but did the best he could as an old farmer. One friend was pre-trib,another mis and another post.
He finally determined that he was PAN-trib. I laughed when he told me what pan-trib was. He said, and I do quote: I believe that it will all "PAN" out!

To my knowledge, he never made a decision on where to stand. At least he was honest enough to say he didn't know.

To some here, he can't be saved because his beliefe on this issue is contrary to truth. Sad. He believed that Jesus died for his sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day. I guess to some of you this wasn't enough to be saved. He was "divided" from the brethren on this one subject.

No one on this board has said any such thing. There is a huge difference between the timing of the Lord's return and believing God's children receive punishment in hell.

 

[Hope of Glory]

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
--Of course he does. He states that he does. And then he goes on and tells how he does without going back and regurgitating the parables of Christ.

Why would he need to regurgitate it? It's already there and should be a foundation for a sound doctrine. But, there is all that about going back and teaching the milk...

 

[Accountable]

Amy, I send this qoute to you:

Since the Bible teaches that Christ is not divided, and the Church is the Body of Christ, then the ones who are trying to divide the Body are not saved, but are 'certain men crept in unawares... ungodly men...'

Can there be no divisions in the church? According to SFIC, the divisionsinsts are not saved. One group must be right, the others, simply are not saved. I guess we need to find which ones are right don't ya think?

He was not specific on what kind of division. Just those trying to divide. Pre, Mis, Post- Trib, is this not dividing the body?

 

[Hope of Glory]

1. For what it is worth: the word for "destroy" in 1 Cor 3:17 is phtheiro, which is a different from apollumi, which is used in Matt.10:28.

2. I know the ME camp loves to build their theology on the fact that different words are used. Well, 1 Cor 3 and Matt 10, should not be of much help to you.

Beat me to it.

1 Corinthians 3:17 uses the same word twice, and it's translated as "defile" the first time in the KJV. If any man is corrupting the temple (present, active), God will be corrupting him (future, active).

 

[Hope of Glory]

1. Well, do a search into these discussions and you will see Hope of Glory working with the Greek aionios and other related terms.

2. Then your post #100 is pointless by your reckoning.

You are talking to two different individuals who God has led to the same conclusion using different methods.

He has not stated anything about aionios, but has shown context.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Actually no, I have never heard of it except when I came on this board.

Well, I personally have contacts in the US, Northern Ireland, the Netherlands, India, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Russia, and Japan on a regular basis. The ones in Malaysia and Japan will not tell me where they are in that country, but I can tell where everyone is from who contacts me through my web site. Oh, I forgot Brazil.

Edited to add: Oh, and Mexico. Sorry, Accountable! I didn't mean to forget you and yours!

 

[DHK]

Then explain why building the temple with wood hay and stubble is not defiling the temple. Why would God judge our works that we build upon the foundation if it were not possible to defile the temple?

If I explain it again, will you accept my explanation? I have already explained this passage many times to you.
James you highly regard the KJV, and so do I. When the NT was originally written it was written in the Greek language. There were no chapter breaks, and no paragraph breaks. In most cases the KJV translators did a very good job of putting these breaks where they should go. They were the scholars of their time. Your KJV does have a symbol which indicates when a separate paragraph or different subject is about to start. Among others there is one at verse 11, verse 16, and verse 18. That inidicated to these many scholars that verses 11-15 were speaking of one topic, 16,17 another topic, and 18-20 still another topic. Those are where the paragraph breaks are according to the KJV translators.

Thus the passage from verse 11-15 is a scene that takes place in heaven. It is known at the JSOC. As TCGreek has pointed out, many of the elements used in that picture are figurative simply because it is a heavenly scene. It is our works that are being judged. A work is a work. I don't think a work is automatically and miraculously going to metamorphose into either gold or stubble. Rather it will be accounted as such in value. Remember it a heavenly scene. It depicts the results of the works of the temple that was being built on earth (any given local church).

In verse sixteen (see paragraph break), Paul brings this picture back to reality, back to earth once again. He brings it back to where he left off in verse 10, speaking of the building of the temple.
We do not build this earthly temple (our local church) with wood, hay and stubble). We have left that heavenly scene and its symbolic and figurative language, and have come back to earth. One cannot impose the picturesque language of Paul in vs.11-15 into verses 16 and 17! Do you build temples with wood hay and stubble? No, no one does. So don't force this into this verse where it does not belong.

You ask: "Why would God judge our works that we build upon the foundation if it were not possible to defile the temple?"
--God judges our works and hands out rewards accordingly. The passage only speaks of rewards and loss of rewards. One cannot read into that passage anything more than what it says. It speaks of reward that is gained, and reward that is lost. It does not speak of chastisement, punishment, hell, thousand year exclusion, or punishment of any kind. It speaks only of reward and loss of reward. That is all that we can glean from that passage. Nothing more.


Verses 16 and 17 are not even directed to believers. They are directed to those who would destoy the temple (the local church). They are directed against false teachers. These verses have nothing to do with vs.11-15. It is a different subject as the paragraph break shows. Why are trying to impose the subject matter of the previous paragraph into this one. It doesn't fit. False teachers are trying to defile and destroy the local church, and yet God says that they themselves will be destroyed. Remember that Jesus said: "I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." False teachers (Satan's emissaries) shall not prevail against God's work. They shall be destroyed. Ultimately they were destroyed at the cross. Victory is found in each believer as they look to the cross, the shed blood of Christ. There is victory in Jesus.

The context is judging believers.

Only in verses 11-15

Just because you are not appointed unto wrath doesn't mean you can't experience wrath. All that says is that it is not God's will for you to experience wrath.

It is not God's will for any believer to experience wrath, and no believer will. No believer will suffer through the Tribulation Period, and no believer will suffer the wrath of God in a Baptist Purgatory. The only "wrath" if you call it that, is the suffering we endure on this earth. But that is not wrath. That is God's love as he allows us to endure suffering in a process of sanctification that we might be molded and conformed to the image of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:18
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

That is a very poor debate tactic, as never was that verse being discussed.
Here is what was being discussed or debated.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

 

[TCGreek]

Beat me to it.

1 Corinthians 3:17 uses the same word twice, and it's translated as "defile" the first time in the KJV. If any man is corrupting the temple (present, active), God will be corrupting him (future, active).

1. I believe the present is a gnomic present and the future is also gnomic.

2. Whenever a person destroys the temple of God, whenever God decides to destroy him, God will do so.

 

[TCGreek]

You are talking to two different individuals who God has led to the same conclusion using different methods.

He has not stated anything about aionios, but has shown context.

Forgive me for assuming that everyone in the ME camp shares the same notes.

 

[Hope of Glory]

2. Whenever a person destroys the temple of God, whenever God decides to destroy him, God will do so.

Well, we agree on this point.