One or both views are irrational.

[Silverhair]

We cannot even will not believe until God graciously makes us alive, even while we were dead.
Sliverhair, you will not acknowledge what God tells you in very plain letters.

Instead, you lift up man and proclaim that God must wait upon man at man's beckoning call as though God were the servant of man. Are you so blind as not to see your baseless claim and your attempt to drag God down while you lift man up?

We will never see eye to eye on this vital issue as long as you lift yourself up above the King!

Austin can you not see that you are trying to lift your theology over the bible which is the word of God. The bible is clear that the gospel is the power of God for salvation and that we must hear and believe the gospel to be saved and yet you deny clear scripture and hold to your calvinist theology.

We will never see eye to eye on this vital issue as long as you lift your theology over the word of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Nope. It is obvious that you deny the Supremacy of God in all things and make yourself your own king.

You continue to deny scripture and hold to your eisegesis of the text. Why do you not trust what Barnes & JFB said? They just follow the text. Perhaps you should try doing that.

 

[AustinC]

You continue to deny scripture and hold to your eisegesis of the text. Why do you not trust what Barnes & JFB said? They just follow the text. Perhaps you should try doing that.

No denial of scripture. I accept scripture. I don't accept your humanist interpretation of scripture.
As to JFB or Barnes, I have no idea who they are. Apparently you rely upon others to tell you what to believe, which is why you constantly invoke Calvin rather than scripture.
As to God's election, not only do we see God knowing Jeremiah before the womb, but God also knew Cyrus. God knew them and also knew all their steps before they were ever born, just as God knew you and me and our steps before we were born.
Since we know that God made us alive while we were still dead in sins, we know that belief does not cause God to be gracious (that's actually a logical fallacy), but instead God's grace caused us to believe. That's what scripture teaches and God receives 100% of the praise and glory. Unlike your teaching which gives man all the praise and glory while tipping the hat to God since he was obligated to fulfill his part of the bargain. (indeed your theology is grace less)

 

[AustinC]

Austin can you not see that you are trying to lift your theology over the bible which is the word of God. The bible is clear that the gospel is the power of God for salvation and that we must hear and believe the gospel to be saved and yet you deny clear scripture and hold to your calvinist theology.

We will never see eye to eye on this vital issue as long as you lift your theology over the word of God.

You cannot hear and believe unless God makes you alive. Ephesians 2 tells you this as well as John 10. Why you refuse these truths is a mystery.

 

[Silverhair]

No denial of scripture. I accept scripture. I don't accept your humanist interpretation of scripture.
As to JFB or Barnes, I have no idea who they are. Apparently you rely upon others to tell you what to believe, which is why you constantly invoke Calvin rather than scripture.
As to God's election, not only do we see God knowing Jeremiah before the womb, but God also knew Cyrus. God knew them and also knew all their steps before they were ever born, just as God knew you and me and our steps before we were born.
Since we know that God made us alive while we were still dead in sins, we know that belief does not cause God to be gracious (that's actually a logical fallacy), but instead God's grace caused us to believe. That's what scripture teaches and God receives 100% of the praise and glory. Unlike your teaching which gives man all the praise and glory while tipping the hat to God since he was obligated to fulfill his part of the bargain. (indeed your theology is grace less)

Barnes & JFB are calvinist commentators. Unlike you I actually read and trust what the bible says not what I want it to say which is what you are doing. So now you are telling me that a pagan king "Cyrus" was saved? You do seem to be all over the map on your theology.

You do realize that God knowing something is not the same as Him causing that thing, that may be your calvinist theology but it is not biblical. Austi you said "instead God's grace caused us to believe." so for all those that God is not gracious to they have a legitimate complaint when they stand before God. He did not give them the grace so as to believe. You have a strange understanding of the bible.

So you just ignore all the scripture that says man has to trust the gospel that he hears before God saves him. You need to explain how someone accepting a gift in some way gives the man praise and glory.

 

[37818]

I cannot be specific since I have not read your rational systematic theology. I am waiting for you to publish it for us.

So have you written yours yet?

How one knows anything comes before what one knows.

Know so salvation.

Knowing God Himself.

The fall of man. And the cause of man's sinful nature.

The two creations. The now and it's replacement.

You have been given more than enough. One doesn't need the whole to be in abled to discuss one point.

Man by disobedience obtained God's knowledge of good and evil which caused the sinful nature by having it.

 

[Silverhair]

You cannot hear and believe unless God makes you alive. Ephesians 2 tells you this as well as John 10. Why you refuse these truths is a mystery.

Why do you not accept the truth of scripture

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Hearing and believing the gospel message does not equal merit thus no boasting. God is the justifier of those that trust in His son.

 

[Alan Gross]

Why do you not accept the truth of scripture

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Hearing and believing the gospel message does not equal merit thus no boasting. God is the justifier of those that trust in His son.

No "Romans Road", without Romans 5:19,20.

 

[AustinC]

Why do you not accept the truth of scripture

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Hearing and believing the gospel message does not equal merit thus no boasting. God is the justifier of those that trust in His son.

LOL, I accept the whole truth of God, Sliverhair. Why do you tear down the Supremacy of God and lift up yourself in His place by proclaiming your great personal choices.

All of Romans 3 supports me, though you seem unaware of it.

 

[Alan Gross]

LOL, I accept the whole truth of God, Sliverhair. Why do you tear down the Supremacy of God and lift up yourself in His place by proclaiming your great personal choices.

All of Romans 3 supports me, though you seem unaware of it.

10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous,

not even one.

11There is no one who understands,

no one who seeks God.

12All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.”

13“Their throats are open graves;

their tongues practice deceit.”

“The venom of vipers is on their lips.”

14“Their mouths are full

of cursing and bitterness.”

15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16ruin and misery lie in their wake,

17and the way of peace they have not known.”

18“There is no fear of God

before their eyes.”

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.

 

[Silverhair]

LOL, I accept the whole truth of God, Sliverhair. Why do you tear down the Supremacy of God and lift up yourself in His place by proclaiming your great personal choices.

All of Romans 3 supports me, though you seem unaware of it.

As I have pointed out to you a number of times but you fail to grasp the fact that what Paul wrote is a MIDRASH.
The Jewish people had no eternal or salvific advantage over Gentiles. The Jews’ elect status was not one of unconditional election unto faith and salvation. The Jews were elected or chosen by God to be the vehicle through which He would bring forth salvation to the world through His Son Jesus Christ. Paul writes: “for we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin” Romans 3:9. The Jewish individual needs the Savior as much as does the Gentile. This is Paul’s point.

These 9 verses are a forthright condemnation of fallen man. But they say nothing about man’s will or his ability or inability to receive the gospel when it is presented to him or whether he will or will not exercise faith and trust in Christ Jesus for his salvation.
It's simply a commentary on general human nature, how selfish and self-centered we are, how much we love our sin, how all humans are fallen, how we have no righteousness of our own to earn our salvation.
That no sinner naturally seeks after God is not to say that he cannot believe the gospel when it is offered to him in the context of God’s enlightenment (John 1:9), conviction (John 16:8), and drawing (John 12:32) it's just that most choose not to.

 

[AustinC]

*Romans 2:28-29*
For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

*Romans 9:6-8,15-16*
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

The elect have always been the Children of the Promise.

 

[Silverhair]

*Romans 2:28-29*
For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

*Romans 9:6-8,15-16*
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

The elect have always been the Children of the Promise.

The promise is that those that have the faith of Abraham will be saved, the ones that are saved are called the elect. Your use of the term elect is not biblical although you keep trying to make it so.

 

[AustinC]

The promise is that those that have the faith of Abraham will be saved, the ones that are saved are called the elect. Your use of the term elect is not biblical although you keep trying to make it so.

You keep praising men.
You praise Abraham and declare that his faith came from himself.
You claim that those who "have the faith of Abraham" will be saved.
You make election contingent upon how much faith a person conjures in the likeness of Abraham.
Sir, it is not my understanding of election that is false and biblically unsupported. It is your humanist doctrine that glorifies man which is anathema to God Himself.
But, Judas was amongst the twelve and he was consumed with himself.

You confuse justification with salvation. Moreso, you deny that faith is a gracious gift given by God to his chosen and elect people.

Abraham had faith because God bestowed it upon him in Covenant. Faith was not something Abraham conjured up by his own willpower.

But alas you imagine it to be so and I will leave you to your imaginations.

 

[Silverhair]

You keep praising men.
You praise Abraham and declare that his faith came from himself.
You claim that those who "have the faith of Abraham" will be saved.
You make election contingent upon how much faith a person conjures in the likeness of Abraham.
Sir, it is not my understanding of election that is false and biblically unsupported. It is your humanist doctrine that glorifies man which is anathema to God Himself.
But, Judas was amongst the twelve and he was consumed with himself.

You confuse justification with salvation. Moreso, you deny that faith is a gracious gift given by God to his chosen and elect people.

Abraham had faith because God bestowed it upon him in Covenant. Faith was not something Abraham conjured up by his own willpower.

But alas you imagine it to be so and I will leave you to your imaginations.

Austin I know you will not believe me but perhaps you will believe the bible
Rom_4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

My faith does not save me, God does. My salvation is dependent upon Christ's work, God chooses to do this not by obligation but because He chooses graciously to impute the righteousness of Christ onto the account of those who repent and believe. God does this because of His honor.

Your theological view denies what the bible clearly shows. For you God has to determine all things but then you reject that idea when the logical outcome of that view is shown to you. You want to walk down both sides of the street at the same time and in your attempt to do so you have shown just how illogical your view is.

I must ask how does one humbly admitting that they are sinners and can not save themselves glorify man?
The one that glorifies man is the one that thinks God thought so highly of him that He chose to elect him before time began. Think about it what made you so special that you were chosen over so many others?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Unconditional election is not even Biblical. Not really rational.

It is not Biblical.
It is, however, rational.

"Rational" does not mean "correct". It means that it follows from certain pre-suppositions.

In the Calvinist schema (which I believe to be un-Biblical) un-conditional election follows as the necessary and rational way to explain why anyone at all is "elect" to salvation.
It's a master-class in Systematic Theology.

The dirty secret of Systematic Theology is that it concerns itself with internal logical consistency to the extent that it's practitioners are tempted to ignore, or incorrectly exegete passages of Scripture which threaten the system.
Systematic Theology is a wonderful and necessary enterprise for Christians to engage in:
Its purpose is to elucidate the "doctrines" or teachings we insist the Scriptures want us to adhere to.
But, Systematic Theology is a human endeavor.
It is mankind's imperfect effort to understand, systematize, rationalize, and distill the Scripture's mysteries into a digestible form for us to consume.
Its weakness, is that it MUST MUST MUST be always "rational" in the sense that if it asserts any one proposition....it is FORCED to accept any logical consequences of said propositions.

Calvinism (which I agree is false)..... is, however, a masterful excercise in rational Theology.
Arminianism....only slightly less so.

Both systems are incorrect:
Both systems are LOADED with truths, however, and therefore worthy to be learned and respected as a schema or lense through which we can understand the mysteries of the Scripture. They are not something to scoff at.

They, while admittedly imperfect, are more correct than incorrect and more loaded with truths than untruths. They, therefore. are both Master-classes in Systematic Theology.

They may not be "Biblical" (which is to say perfect)....but, they are "rational".

 

[MrW]

You are right. Both have error, that's why I'm neither. I believe what I read in the Bible and I read that God gives people a chance, unlike Calvin, who has it rigged so no one has a choice at all.

 

[MrW]

Austin I know you will not believe me but perhaps you will believe the bible
Rom_4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

My faith does not save me, God does. My salvation is dependent upon Christ's work, God chooses to do this not by obligation but because He chooses graciously to impute the righteousness of Christ onto the account of those who repent and believe. God does this because of His honor.

Your theological view denies what the bible clearly shows. For you God has to determine all things but then you reject that idea when the logical outcome of that view is shown to you. You want to walk down both sides of the street at the same time and in your attempt to do so you have shown just how illogical your view is.

I must ask how does one humbly admitting that they are sinners and can not save themselves glorify man?
The one that glorifies man is the one that thinks God thought so highly of him that He chose to elect him before time began. Think about it what made you so special that you were chosen over so many others?

Excellent post, Silverhair! You wrote exactly what the Bible states plainly! Refreshing!

 

[DaveXR650]

The dirty secret of Systematic Theology is that it concerns itself with internal logical consistency to the extent that it's practitioners are tempted to ignore, or incorrectly exegete passages of Scripture which threaten the system.
Systematic Theology is a wonderful and necessary enterprise for Christians to engage in:
Its purpose is to elucidate the "doctrines" or teachings we insist the Scriptures want us to adhere to.
But, Systematic Theology is a human endeavor.
It is mankind's imperfect effort to understand, systematize, rationalize, and distill the Scripture's mysteries into a digestible form for us to consume.
Its weakness, is that it MUST MUST MUST be always "rational" in the sense that if it asserts any one proposition....it is FORCED to accept any logical consequences of said propositions.

You know, that's really well said.

 

[37818]

A Systematic Theology and a Christian Apolpgetic for the faith are related. A good reference Bible is effectively a systematic theology.