"Oneness Pentecostals" cult!

[Elk]

Salvation

As a devout Christian I am so saddened to have visited this website again.
It is apparent that all those that responded here have no love as clearly the biting words that are displayed here. Out of the blue you all ask what Salvation means to me and I have told you all, but you all have not answered my question. It clearly speaks volumes that you think I'll tear it down or something. But if I say anything anymore, you will not listen, even if I quoted the Roman road verses or whatever.
But true conversion is apparent by the Holy Spirit that resides in the converted individual. You can believe all you want, but if you are not reborn, you simply are not saved. Remember that the devil believes and trembles, and he is not saved.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

"Oneness Pentecostals" are also known as "Jesus Only churches, Modolist, One GOD Apostolics". The largest "oneness pentecostal" group is the United Pentecostal Church (UPC)...

1. They deny the Trinity (One GOD in 3 persons) and believe that it is a tritheistic-godhead.

They believe that JESUS is GOD and that Jesus is the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT and Jesus (as the FATHER and the HOLY GHOST) indwelt the SON (flesh). As you can see they are Unitarian (belief that GOD is ONE Person). This Unitarian deity exist in the MODES of the FATHER, the SON (the Father, and the Holy Spirit being one person indwells the SON [flesh] at the incarnation) and the HOLY GHOST.

2. They Deny that Baptism is "in the NAME of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost" Matt. 28:19 and that baptism is NOT essential for salvation, because it is the BLOOD of JESUS that remits our sin, not the water of baptism.

They believe that baptism should be in the NAME of JESUS and the Name of Jesus is the Name of the FATHER, and the HOLY GHOST and baptism is essential for salvation, because they teach that baptism is for the remission of sins.

3. They deny that a believer can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues. It is the gift of GOD through faith that puts us into contact with the BLOOD of JESUS by the power of God's GRACE through the working of the Holy Ghost.

In short, they say: if you have not spoke in tongues, you do NOT have the Holy Ghost and without the Holy Ghost, you are NOT a child of God.

4. They have what they call "Holisness Standards".

For EX. Women must not cut thier hair or wair makeup and the man must be clean shaving, no watching t.v. and etc...

Our Holiness does NOT come by the things we do or dont do, Our HOLINESS comes by GOD, through JESUS and His BLOOD, and by the Power of the Holy GHOST. Our "Holiness Standard" is JESUS Christ! If you don't have His holiness, no matter what you do can make you holy enough to enter His presense in heaven by your own good works...READ: Eph. 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5...etc.

The teachings of thier denominations can be trace back to the GREAT Pentecostal revival in the early 1900's, and therefore, because it can not be traced back to the bible we as christains must reconize them as a cult.

Just a curious note:
The debate of Trinitarinism vs. Modolism has been going on since the 2nd century.

Do you have anything helpful info. that you can say as a warning to those that are around this group that we as christian love so much and hope that they come to salvation by God's GRACE and not thier own works?

:godisgood:

My contention is that all Pentecostals fall under the Montanist Heresy. I went to a Pentecostal university to understand their teaching and found that this is true though they denied it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

As a devout Christian I am so saddened to have visited this website again.
It is apparent that all those that responded here have no love as clearly the biting words that are displayed here. Out of the blue you all ask what Salvation means to me and I have told you all, but you all have not answered my question. It clearly speaks volumes that you think I'll tear it down or something. But if I say anything anymore, you will not listen, even if I quoted the Roman road verses or whatever.
But true conversion is apparent by the Holy Spirit that resides in the converted individual. You can believe all you want, but if you are not reborn, you simply are not saved. Remember that the devil believes and trembles, and he is not saved.

What is your question?

 

[DHK]

As a devout Christian I am so saddened to have visited this website again.

Any born again believer would rejoice to tell others how they were saved. They would also be able to tell others how to be saved.

I know that all the Baptists on here are able to do that.
That brings me to another point. Since you have Baptist in your profile, I am going to assume that you have put it there deceitfully. You are not acting like a Baptist at all. Are you a Baptist? Have you lied on your profile? If you were truly a Baptist you would have no problem and no difficulty in answering the questions I ask of you. So what's up?

 

[Benjamin]

As a devout Christian I am so saddened to have visited this website again.
It is apparent that all those that responded here have no love as clearly the biting words that are displayed here. Out of the blue you all ask what Salvation means to me and I have told you all, but you all have not answered my question. It clearly speaks volumes that you think I'll tear it down or something. But if I say anything anymore, you will not listen, even if I quoted the Roman road verses or whatever.
But true conversion is apparent by the Holy Spirit that resides in the converted individual. You can believe all you want, but if you are not reborn, you simply are not saved. Remember that the devil believes and trembles, and he is not saved.

Elk,

When I ask you, “how a person is saved?” it is not to question your salvation, or to turn on you and tell you that you are not saved. It is to find out what your understanding has come to while you admittedly are listening to the Oneness doctrines and to compared to what the Bible says. We are told to “study to show thyself approved” and to be prepared to give an answer to any man that asks you of the hope that is in you. The Bible warns: “Beware lest any man spoils you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of man, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” SO when I hear you giving praise to the Oneness crowd I begin to question what it is about their doctrine that has impressed you. The reason for this is that I know what they teach. I came across a very scholarly group from that belief that was geared up and recruiting unsuspecting people right into their false doctrines.

I debated that clan many hours a day, for months, and sometimes took a beating because of not being prepared for what they threw at me, but I stuck to the truths of God’s words and they spoke for themselves. Through all the ugliness that arose in debate, which often kept me up at night, sometimes brought tears to my eyes, and made me feel unqualified intellectually; I still knew what they were espousing was a dangerous lie as it did not line up to God’s Word and so prayed everyday for His guidance in this matter. I felt like a little David in a field of Goliaths and I wished I had never got into it in the first place but I was wrong in wishing that because the experience ended up serving to strengthen my faith, gave me more knowledge and understanding, along with abilities to Biblically back up the Truth. I ended up a workman that “needth not be ashamed.” The lies of this Oneness crowd became apparent and eventually they were all banned.

BTW, those same people that spoke so highly of God’s love in prophetic ways are the ones that turned ugly and resorted to "biting” while claiming to have "special revelations” as they began to lose the battle to the truths in God’s Words! Are you too thin skinned to give reason for the hope that is in you and compare that to God’s Words? After all, you are the one that came to this board telling others that they should embrace Oneness doctrines. As I’ve said, I know what their doctrines and their methods consist of. Do you? You have been asked to explain your beliefs and this has to do for the “love” of the truth. You don't have to be a scholar here to explain what in on your heart. You can humbly stand up and defend, or simply only discuss your idea on this debate board, or willingly run claiming to be a martyr.

 

[Benjamin]

I do know why you are asking about Salvation because in Oneness churches there is a major emphasis on Water Baptism.

Correct, they not only believe in baptismal regeneration but place it within their “Jesus only” formula according to their interpretation of Mathew 28:18 (in which they must not only deny the Trinitarian nature of God seen throughout the Bible, and do so by forcing decontextualization upon every instance it is seen) in order to be saved, and they wholly decree reliance, as a cult would, on this Jesus” Name “condition” during water baptism for salvation.

But years ago I had a thought worth contemplating. If one never gets water baptized, and I am speaking spiritually, when and at what point exactly, really at what point, without baptism in water, have you died and rose again with Christ?

So at what point “exactly” does a tank of earthly water become spiritual in nature with the abilities and powers to raise a human spirit from the dead through rebirth?

To answer your question of when: At the very instant one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.

To claim you are only reborn when the physical water hits you puts the power of salvation into the hands of the man who dunks you in a tank of “Holy water”, and this would then be a work of man, and something you have earned by doing, a salvation of works.

There are a host of things that we actually are required to do.

So you are saying that actually, that is in reality, we are “required” to do a host of things to be saved? So then what do you do with this:

(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: itis the gift of God:

(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

One is saved by faith alone Elk, there is no major emphases on earthly water, no other conditions, no other requirements for salvation. You are saved by faith, with an empty hand; through faith alone you are saved, this is the free gift of God.

 

[Elk]

So then what about these???

Matt 5:20
20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
NASU

Matt 5:19-20
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
NIV

Matt 5:21-22
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
NIV

Matt 5:29-30
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
NIV

Matt 5:48
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
NIV

Matt 6:14-15
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
NIV

Matt 7:13-14
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
NIV

Matt 7:21-22
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
NIV


Do not these Scriptures indicate that it is something more than just what Benjamin quoted above me? Does it not come down to being born again and having His Spirit in order for us to obey Him?
Do you not think it prudent to tell others that while we are indeed adopted children of God or even true children of God only by God, but we also need to act like children of God in order to enter His Kingdom; and although we fail at times and all that, God does not disown us if we repent as if we are truly children of God as 1 John says, we do not sin willingly but we are liars if we say we do not sin.
Don't you believe that Jesus is looking for a certain type of people to fill His Kingdom...do you just think anyone comes in who thinks they are saved? According to these verses above, it is clear that not all enter even though they do mighty works for Him.

We must know Him, yes? Obey, Him, yes?

Do you not think it is wrong to lead people to believe that salvation is a cakewalk? Jesus did not do away with the Law but He fulfilled it.
His precious death on the cross has paid for our sins, and is not repenting as the Bible requires us to do, clearly a statement that we are coming to a HOLY GOD?

 

[DHK]

We must know Him, yes? Obey, Him, yes?

How do we know Him. You haven't told us yet. Why are you avoiding such a simple question. How is a person saved, Elk?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

For the record, I fail to see a difference between Oneness "Pentecostals" (the quotes are because most Pentecostals AoG and COGICs are orthodox in their doctrine of God) and the Unitarians.

 

[DHK]

As a devout Christian I am so saddened to have visited this website again.

What is a devout Christian. Please explain, in detail.

 

[Benjamin]

We are getting a way off here from the subject that we should embrace Oneness doctrine and whether or not it is a cult, but I will be glad to, if it will help understanding, to address these questions.

Do not these Scriptures indicate that it is something more than just what Benjamin quoted above me? Does it not come down to being born again and having His Spirit in order for us to obey Him?

We were not talking about discipleship, but salvation; yes, we must be born again in order for to be saved, that is what it comes down to, not how much we obey, but that we can because of His fulfilling His promise of grace. True, there is no other way than through Him.

Do you not think it prudent to tell others that while we are indeed adopted children of God or even true children of God only by God, but we also need to act like children of God in order to enter His Kingdom; and although we fail at times and all that, God does not disown us if we repent as if we are truly children of God as 1 John says, we do not sin willingly but we are liars if we say we do not sin.

Should we act like children of God? Well, yes, we should, but does our Father tell His children that they need to get it all straight or send eternity in hell (not enter His Kingdom?) I think you are basically answering your own question here saying He will “not disown us” and “we are liars if we say we do not sin.” Problem is, you also put a condition toward Him not disowning us by saying we must repent. Repenting is a change of heart toward God, is it not a work in which “we” match some sort of standard that determines whether we are good enough or not, simply we are not good enough and are only saved by our Father’s loving grace, He provided the Way and paid the cost. So the point is there is nothing you can do to earn your way into His Kingdom.

Don't you believe that Jesus is looking for a certain type of people to fill His Kingdom...

No, not in the sense of being special enough, yes, in the sense He is looking for sinners.

...do you just think anyone comes in who thinks they are saved? According to these verses above, it is clear that not all enter even though they do mighty works for Him.

I believe those people saying “Lord, Lord” were thinking they could earn their way into heaven saying “look at all the wonderful works we have done” they were working by the law and therefore workers of inequity, they were judged by the law.

We must know Him, yes? Obey, Him, yes?

Must obey Him, as by what standard?

Do you not think it is wrong to lead people to believe that salvation is a cakewalk? Jesus did not do away with the Law but He fulfilled it.

Jesus said:

(Mat 11:28) Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

(Mat 11:29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

(Mat 11:30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

His precious death on the cross has paid for our sins, and is not repenting as the Bible requires us to do, clearly a statement that we are coming to a HOLY GOD?

Did Jesus pay for "all" your sins or some of them? Will you earn your own way by repenting?

 

[ajg1959]

I am going to go on a limb here and assume, probably wrongly, that the sole purpose of this thread is not just to bash a Christian denomination.

1) Scripture nowhere explicitly teaches the Trinity as we have it. It just does not. If the Lord wanted us to hold it as important as we do, I believe He would have been much more clear.

2) Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals, from what I understand from them, teach that Jesus Christ was first God the Father, then incarnated and lived on the earth as Son, and after ascension returned to the earth as the Holy Spirit. Yes I know there are Scripture difficulties with this, but that is what they believe.

3) Denial of the Trinity does not necessarily mean denial of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. Some of them refer to Trinitarian theology as "Dividing God," which is not an accurate characterization of Trinitarian Christians. Scripture commands Christians to believe that Jesus Christ is God; they do this a different way than Trinitarian theology.

4) Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals rejected the Trinity because Roman Catholicism teaches it, Scripture is not explicit on the Trinity, and they commonly distrust Rome deeply. Many here consider that a virtue.

Apostolics vary deeply in their practices. At some churches, long sleeves is required; at others, short sleeves are fine. These are standards of modesty. I know that they teach that women must never cut their hair because of 1 Corinthians 11. I do not believe the passage teaches this extreme. I believe that many of their `holiness' standards are biblically unmerited -- but I commend them for taking living godly so seriously.

Who is their Lord? Their Lord is my Lord: Jesus Christ. They serve Him following His teachings in Scripture every day of their lives, as do I. I believe that this takes precedence over their errors.

If this is open to one's own whim as you imply, then why did Jesus pray to the "Father"?, and why does Jesus instruct us to pray to the Father also?

Never, not once does Jesus tell us to pray to Himself, or Mary or any saints. Jesus only told us to pray to the Father.

To me this is clear evidence that the "Father" is a seperate "person" than the Son.

Also, Jesus said He would send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. He didnt say He would come back as the Holy Spirit, He said He would send Him. Clearly, the Holy Spirit is also a seperate "person" than the Son.

Also, as has been stated before, adding Baptism and signs of tongues to salvation is teaching "salvation by works" and not solely by Grace.

If our works determines our eternity, and not just solely the Grace of God, then I am in trouble.

AJ

 

[Marcia]

For the record, I fail to see a difference between Oneness "Pentecostals" (the quotes are because most Pentecostals AoG and COGICs are orthodox in their doctrine of God) and the Unitarians.

Big difference, although the origin of the Unitarians was denial of the Trinity.

The Unitarians did not teach speaking in tongues and did not teach modalism, as the Oneness Pentenecostals do. The founder, Michael Servetus, also denied the deity of Christ.

Eventually, the did away with the Christian part altogether, believing that truth could come from other religions as well. The Universalist Church joined with the Unitarians so now they are known technically as the Unitarian Universalist Association. And today, some Untiarians do not even believe in God.

Here's some info:

http://www.essortment.com/all/historyunitaria_rmrn.htm

 

[nunatak]

Modalism was around long before Servetus.

 

[Marcia]

Modalism was around long before Servetus.

Yes, I know. In the 3rd century (I think - maybe the 4th) it was called Sabellianism and was condemned as a heresy.

I was just pointing out that the Unitarians were never modalists (as the Oneness are) in response to the post by Squire Robertson.

 

[nunatak]

Yes, I know. In the 3rd century (I think - maybe the 4th) it was called Sabellianism and was condemned as a heresy.

I was just pointing out that the Unitarians were never modalists (as the Oneness are) in response to the post by Squire Robertson.

Ah, I misunderstood. My bad.

 

[Elk]

Hello

I just want to say, i am going through a very rough time right now with all this.
I have struggled with the Trinity concept for 22 years and recently found elsewhere on line one of the most profound intelligent things I ever read on the Trinity, but however, in short order, the other stuff this person wrote he claimed was from the Throne Room of God but is not. It was really bad.
I found this topic (here) actually via a google search, and was trying to hash it out but I guess I just made everyone mad at me, and I guess I do look like a wacko.
And I have been a little vague about answering more personal questions, because at this point with the internet I just don't care to.
But I'll say this, I absolutely need a dose of Charles Stanley on a regular basis, and since we got our Life Way I practically live there, and sometimes when I pick up a book there and read a little I find myself with tears of joy...and coming home with all kinds of stuff. You might be surprised at this about the "once saved always saved" concept; I probably believe it more than you all do.

 

[nunatak]

Elk,
The biggest problem with Oneness Pentecostalism is not their adherence to modalism, though it is known heresy.

The biggest is their insistence on proving their own righteousness to merit eternal life. This is absolutely impossible. Our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. How is this possible? Not by trying to prove our own. But by faith in Christ.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down)
Rom 10:7 or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

What is the word of faith? That if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

That is, you must believe the gospel. Believe the gospel, and you will be saved.

But what about Acts 2:38?

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Oneness folks hold to this to the exclusion of everything else. Indeed, they interpret the entirety of Scripture based on their false interpretation of Acts 2:38.

Did Peter preach a salvation by works in Act 2? If he did, what about Acts 2:21?

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

In fact:

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

My prayer is that you will come to the place where you need nothing, or no one, save for Christ. Christ is the stairway that is fixed between heaven and earth, there is no need to try to ascend to some mystical understanding to bring Christ down. Christ is seen in the word of faith true believers proclaim, and that word is belief in the gospel.

 

[Benjamin]

I just want to say, i am going through a very rough time right now with all this.
I have struggled with the Trinity concept for 22 years and recently found elsewhere on line one of the most profound intelligent things I ever read on the Trinity, but however, in short order, the other stuff this person wrote he claimed was from the Throne Room of God but is not. It was really bad.
I found this topic (here) actually via a google search, and was trying to hash it out but I guess I just made everyone mad at me, and I guess I do look like a wacko.
And I have been a little vague about answering more personal questions, because at this point with the internet I just don't care to.
But I'll say this, I absolutely need a dose of Charles Stanley on a regular basis, and since we got our Life Way I practically live there, and sometimes when I pick up a book there and read a little I find myself with tears of joy...and coming home with all kinds of stuff. You might be surprised at this about the "once saved always saved" concept; I probably believe it more than you all do.

Not much easy in the world of theology Elk. You take the good and spit out the bad. Trinity is a difficult concept for many to grasp. It is what the Bible shows us of the Divine nature of God and we put this concept into our finite words as best we can to explain it. Just so you know I’m not mad at you, nor did I think you looked like a wacko; I figured you as someone who was searching for the truth. Tears of joy, well, that sounds like a good thing.

(Joh 15:26) But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

 

[Marcia]

Elk, maybe these will help on the Trinity.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trin_against.htm

This article is oriented to answering JWs but it's about the Trinity:
http://www.watchman.org/jw/trinity1.htm


A longer article:
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=215