Pictoral Chart of Revelation

[Herb Evans]

Hi everybody;
One thing I've learned in life is that arguments will only make men hate one another for their disagreements.
MB

Well, i have been debating for 15 years, and I don't hate anyone. There are some that I would rather not talk to because of their antagonistic behavior. Paul asked have I become your enemy because I Tell you the truth. Forums present the chance to both teach and learn. -- Herb Evans

 

[Ed Edwards]

MB: // It seems every generation has thought at one time or another the Lord's a coming. //

Amen, Sibling MB -- you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

It is a sign of the true Christians: they
believe the Lord is coming back IN THIER GENERATION.

MB: // Don't you agree that it's not so much His coming we should worry about but being ready for it?//

Amen, Sibling MB -- you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

Perchance you missed that you were talking about
Matthew 24:36 and I was talking about Matthew 24:31?
The '6' and the '1' are different.

____________________________________________________________

Ed, this is my second response to the above quote that you made about 33 hours ago that puts Matt.24:36 PRIOR to the SC by "extracting" it
from its Post-Trib SETTING and transferring it to a Pre-Trib SETTING! You have had time to digest my first point that Pre-Tribism was first based on Post-Trib Truth, i.e., because the "SETTING" for not knowing the Day or Hour of Christ's coming to "gather Saints from earth to heaven and to send angels to finish the gathering to the Synagogue in the sky must be set on the CHART at the SC AFTER the great tribulation!! You cannot sidestep the question by stating you were referring to vs.31 rather than
vs.36!!! [Because you put these 2 verses in the same context of time]

You cannot avoid that the word of the Lord also places verse 31 "in the days AFTER the great tribulation" because He required THE SIGN by which
men will "mourn" to be seen before the angels finish gathering the Elect
that He gathers from earth just BEFORE He appears at the SC! I don't believe you can support your claim that THE SIGN and consequent "mourning" of vs.30 occurs years after Jesus "gathers the Elect and sends the Angels" at the same time that He comes in a Pre-Trib SETTING!! Since
you lump vs.31-36 together, you must claim both the "unknown HOUR" as well as the "gathering" of vs.31 are "Pre-Trib Rapture" EVENTS instead of allowing vs.36 to refer to a "Post-Trib Rapture" in your reference to vs.36 above as the foundation for a so-called Pre-Trib Rapture!!!

Maybe you have given up on my second response about 30 hours ago!
This third time I would emphasize that you are placing only part of the
Post-Trib PASSAGE into a Pre-Trib "Setting"!! At the same time, IMO, you are guilty of deleting the most important part of the SETTING for Post-Trib Truth in order to save the unsound basis of a "Signless Rapture"!!!
Mel www.lastday.net :jesus: knew His teaching would be debated! But I don't think what He taught about His return can be sliced up or shredded into non-integrated sections!! It creates discordant notes!!!

 

[saturneptune]

Well, i have been debating for 15 years, and I don't hate anyone. There are some that I would rather not talk to because of their antagonistic behavior. Paul asked have I become your enemy because I Tell you the truth. Forums present the chance to both teach and learn. -- Herb Evans

That is making the assumption your rapture theory is the truth. In fact, it is theory. You saying it is by your series of events does not make it so.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //You cannot avoid that the word of the Lord
also places verse 31 "in the days AFTER the great tribulation"
because He required THE SIGN by which
men will "mourn" to be seen before the angels
finish gathering the Elect ... //

I not only can, I have.
BTW, your assumption (not shown scripturally) that
the "after the tribualtion of those days" in Matthew 24:29
applies to Matthew 24:31 is NOT superior to my using
Matthew 24:3 (the questions asked of Jesus) as the
major outline of Matthew 24. My outline of Matthew 24
being given in Matthew 24:3 is using the Scripture to
outline the scripture.

Compare my logic to the ciruclar logic above.

Yet both logics are assumptions. It is just that my
assumption (Matthew 24:3 gives the major outline
of Jesus'es statemetnts in Matthe 24:4-44) works out,
your assumption fails.

OBTW (oh, by the way), God has two elect (in some dispensations, they end up
one elect in later dispensations):

1. Mostly gentiles of the present age
2. Jewish Israeli of the O.T. age and Tribulation age

 

[Herb Evans]

That is making the assumption your rapture theory is the truth. In fact, it is theory. You saying it is by your series of events does not make it so.

Well, Mr. Heathen gods, MB posted a general axiom that had nothing to do with the rapture. I responded generally with a comment that had nothing to do with the rapture. Seems like you are prone to jump to conclusions and to post one liners to full length treatment of things as a spoiler without any committment of your own. Let us see your order of events. -- Herb Evans

 

[saturneptune]

Well, Mr. Heathen gods, MB posted a general axiom that had nothing to do with the rapture. I responded generally with a comment that had nothing to do with the rapture. Seems like you are prone to jump to conclusions and to post one liners to full length treatment of things as a spoiler without any committment of your own. Let us see your order of events. -- Herb Evans

First of all, since your best shot at intelligence seems to be to make fun of someone's name, not that I owe you an explanation, but astronomy is my hobby, and I enjoy it very much. If my parents had named me Herbert, I would have come up with some other name to post by, Im telling ya. The only Herbert I can think of is Herbert Hoover, well, we know what happened there.

Your sharp comments are not limited to me. I have read the verses as many times as you have, and do not come to the same conclusion, or at least, I have sense enough to know that we are given enough information to have only an idea about the end times. One of the problems with theories like yours, not to say it is wrong, because theories can be right in the end, is that you have no idea how time progresses towards the end as we enter eternity. You are assuming time stays constant as it is now.

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

Mel Miller: //You cannot avoid that the word of the Lord also places verse 31 "in the days AFTER the great tribulation"
because He required THE SIGN by which men will "mourn" to be seen before the angels finish gathering the Elect ... //

I not only can, I have.

BTW, your assumption (not shown scripturally) that
the "after the tribualtion of those days" in Matthew 24:29
applies to Matthew 24:31 is NOT superior to my using
Matthew 24:3 (the questions asked of Jesus) as the
major outline of Matthew 24. My outline of Matthew 24
being given in Matthew 24:3 is using the Scripture to
outline the scripture.

Compare my logic to the ciruclar logic above.

Yet both logics are assumptions. It is just that my
assumption (Matthew 24:3 gives the major outline
of Jesus'es statemetnts in Matthe 24:4-44) works out,
your assumption fails.

OBTW (oh, by the way), God has two elect (in some dispensations, they end up
one elect in later dispensations):

1. Mostly gentiles of the present age
2. Jewish Israeli of the O.T. age and Tribulation age

___________________________________________________________

Why do you stoop to calling the revelation of Jesus an "ASSUMPTION"?
Jesus did NOT assume that the "after the tribulation of those days in Matt. 24:29 applies to (a signless Pre-Trib-Rapture in) Matthew 24:31"!
That is your brazen denial of "part of the answer He gave to THE SIGNS
of His coming"!! It shows, once again, the absence of any support for a
hypothetical-signless-rapture that supposedly occurs BEFORE instead of occurring "AFTER the great tribulation"; making Jesus a Liar!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Herb Evans]

saturneptune]First of all, since your best shot at intelligence seems to be to make fun of someone's name, not that I owe you an explanation, but astronomy is my hobby, and I enjoy it very much. If my parents had named me Herbert, I would have come up with some other name to post by, Im telling ya. The only Herbert I can think of is Herbert Hoover, well, we know what happened there.

Well, my best shot at intelligence evidently smoked something out more than a one liner. It was worth it to get you to say something other than one liner, spoiler digs. -- Herb Evans

Your sharp comments are not limited to me. I have read the verses as many times as you have, and do not come to the same conclusion, or at least, I have sense enough to know that we are given enough information to have only an idea about the end times. One of the problems with theories like yours, not to say it is wrong, because theories can be right in the end, is that you have no idea how time progresses towards the end as we enter eternity. You are assuming time stays constant as it is now.

Well, if you would have posted this way to begin with, we would not be having this altercation. I have no problem with folks disagreeing with me, but I would like to know why and on what they base their disagreement. perhaps, you will get further light on the issue either pro or con and will one day be able to present your view on here. Have a nice day. -- Herb Evans

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //Why do you stoop to calling the revelation
of Jesus an "ASSUMPTION"?//

I didn't.
I called how you read the revelation of Jesus an assumption.
BTW, how you read it is a false assumption that can
result in false conclusiolns.

'Assumption' is a logical term, 200 years ago it was called 'axiom'
(self evident truth).
It would be better if you, like I, made a scriptural assumption.

--------------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
----------------------------------------------

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

Ed,

In order to force Jesus to refer to a Pre-Trib Rapture, you contradict yourself and also Herb Evans after approving what He believes! You also admit the Rapture occurs after the Trib!! In my opinion, this distorts the truth so no one can agree with you!!!

In #43 you agree there is a Post-Trib Rapture:
Quote:
3. Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) – Pre-Trib.
4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4) – Post-Trib.
Note that resurrections #3, #4 are accompanied by a rapture of living saints. [Rev.20:4 is Post-Trib].
______________________________________________________

You praise Herb Evans in #44 who disagrees with you that the Pre-Trib
Rapture is described in Matt.24:31 (and so is not in Mark 13:27).

Your Quote:
No Signs precede the Rapture. (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
[Herb disagrees that Matt.24:31 refers to the Rapture at any time!]
Signs precede the Second Coming. (Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)
_____________________________________________________
Signs do precede the Rapture! You praise Herb and then disagree with him in the same Post!! You claim Matt.24:31-36 describes the End of the Age Rapture (Post 44); but that this End of the Age does not include the great tribulation or Signs of the Rapture!!! [You refuse to admit THE SIGNS of Christ’s SC in vs.30-31 precede the Rapture which you admit occurs
in verse 31.]

In the minds of most Christians, the End of the Age includes Christ’s SC! In #51 and #70 you claim that Matt.24:31-36 describes the End of the Age but not the SC!! You contradict Jesus, disagree with Herb and split off part of your own “pre-trib segment” of End of the Age prophecy from the SIGNS of Christ’s coming to force a signless-pre-trib-rapture!!!

You deny that Matt.24:36 is the DAY of Christ’s Post-Trib SC to “gather the Saints from earth to heaven and to send the angels to complete the gathering” after “those who mourn see THE SIGN of His Presence in heaven”! Yet you claim Matt.24:31 is the Rapture while denying it occurs after the great tribulation!! You juggle the timing by assuming the End of the Age does NOT include the SIGNS of Christ’s coming to “gather the elect from earth to heaven and to send the angels to gather them out of all the extremities of the heavens”!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net Ed Edwards has no part in the :1_grouphug:

 

[Mel Miller]

Basic Flaw in the Chart of Revelation

Ed,

In order to force Jesus to refer to a Pre-Trib Rapture, you contradict yourself and also Herb Evans after approving what He believes! You also admit the Rapture occurs after the Trib!! In my opinion, this distorts the truth so no one can agree with you!!!

Why did I close with "Ed Edwards has no part in the :1_grouphug:

?"
_____________________________________________________________

We are all in UNION spiritually in Christ having become one in the Faith!
But Jesus' High Priestly Prayer was that we might be ONE in His Truth!!
One WORD about His SC separates Believers rancorously quite often!!!

In Ed's case, alone to my knowledge, that word is NOT the direct word
from the lips of Jesus that a specific DAY is appointed for His return! It
is agreed among all Believers that He promised to "raise up all Believers
on the last day"!! Disunity arises over the meaning of the word "day"!!!

Why the Disunity?

Before we look at the origin of the Flaw in the Chart of the Revelation, please consider the basic result of the Flaw! That basic result requires that the Day of the Lord must be expanded to include the 70th Seven
of Daniel's Prophecy!! Pre-Tribbers insist the Rapture must occur prior to the 7-Year-Day that begins with Dan.9:27; not after Matt.24:29!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net The :1_grouphug: should include ALL Believers!!!

 

[Herb Evans]

"We are all in UNION spiritually in Christ having become one in the Faith!But Jesus' High Priestly Prayer was that we might be ONE in His Truth!!
One WORD about His SC separates Believers rancorously quite often!!!

Count me out of the "one in the faith" thing in regard to any spiritual union except "the family of God!" I am not one in the faith with Charismatics and Catholics and Protestants in the socalled invisible church. Count me in on the "one in the truth" thing. -- Herb Evans

 

[Mel Miller]

Flaw in the Charts on Revelation

Friends,

Earlier I sent the following post as part of the ongoing-discussion on the "Chart of Events in the Book of Revelation". This was #72 in the postings.

You will note the third paragraph is spread out across the page instead of remaining the same length as the first two paragraphs. When I sent the post at 6:30 AM, the length of sentences in the final paragraph was the same as the sentences in the first two paragraphs. Does anyone know what caused the lengthening of just 2 sentences in the third paragraph? It’s a continuing phenomenon.

I am sending the message again as this phenomenon leaves me wondering why certain sentences are often expanded in length across the page. My postings always have a uniform length for each sentence. Changes occur instantly at the moment I post messages to the threads under discussion.

_____________________________________________________________

We are all in UNION spiritually in Christ having become one in the Faith!
But Jesus' High Priestly Prayer was that we might be ONE in His Truth!!
One WORD about His SC separates Believers rancorously quite often!!!

In Ed's case, alone to my knowledge, that word is NOT the direct word
from the lips of Jesus that a specific DAY is appointed for His return! It
is agreed among all Believers that He promised to "raise up all Believers
on the last day"!! Disunity arises over the meaning of the word "day"!!!

Why the Disunity?

Before we look at the origin of the Flaw in the Chart of the Revelation, please consider the basic result of the Flaw! That basic result requires that the Day of the Lord must be expanded to include the 70th Seven
of Daniel's Prophecy!! Pre-Tribbers insist the Rapture must occur prior
to the 7-Year-Day that begins with Dan.9:27; not after Matt.24:29!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net The :1_grouphug: should include ALL Believers!!!

 

[Mel Miller]

Charts on Revelation

Count me out of the "one in the faith" thing in regard to any spiritual union except "the family of God!" I am not one in the faith with Charismatics and Catholics and Protestants in the socalled invisible church. Count me in on the "one in the truth" thing. -- Herb Evans

____________________________________________________________

How does your above claim of being "one in the truth thing" stack up
against what you wrote in post #38:

Quote:
We have been sent a letter and tract, distributed by a nonsectarian ship (without a flag, during war time), a so called "Christian Missionary Society," P.O. Box .4097, Phoenix, Arizona 85030 (a freelance, bloodsucking, para-church organization), which seeks to promote the theory that present day believers will go through the Tribulation. This cowardly author does not indicate his name but offers $ 100,000, in his news letter, for one scripture to prove the pre tribulation, rapture false doctrine. One can imagine what happens if it takes two verses or three to prove it. Still, the author looks for the Tribulation, but we look for a Saviour.

The tract offers $ 100,000, to anyone, who can prove Christians will be raptured before the soon coming great Tribulation. Still, the author does not produce one verse of scripture that proves the church "will" go through the Tribulation or that the Rapture is "not" imminent; he merely challenges and gainsays the opposition, a familiar tactic with eschatological false teachers. End of Quote
____________________________________________________________
This is an example of rancorous disunity!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net Seeking Unity in the Truth

 

[Herb Evans]

Friends,

Earlier I sent the following post as part of the ongoing-discussion on the "Chart of Events in the Book of Revelation". This was #72 in the postings.

You will note the third paragraph is spread out across the page instead of remaining the same length as the first two paragraphs. When I sent the post at 6:30 AM, the length of sentences in the final paragraph was the same as the sentences in the first two paragraphs. Does anyone know what caused the lengthening of just 2 sentences in the third paragraph? It’s a continuing phenomenon.

I am sending the message again as this phenomenon leaves me wondering why certain sentences are often expanded in length across the page. My postings always have a uniform length for each sentence. Changes occur instantly at the moment I post messages to the threads under discussion.

It could be your word processor font. I have found that if I change my word precessor font to verdana 10 and in justified mode and paste into the forums message, I am okay. -- Herb Evans

 

[Mel Miller]

Charts on Revelation

Count me out of the "one in the faith" thing in regard to any spiritual union except "the family of God!" I am not one in the faith with Charismatics and Catholics and Protestants in the socalled invisible church. Count me in on the "one in the truth" thing. -- Herb Evans

____________________________________________________________

Before you charge another with "A Second Big Lie, a Half Truth", please
see if you can establish the other Half Truth as the only part that is true:

Quote:
____________________________________________________________
The church will NOT go through the tribulation but Israel will. Those Jewish and Gentile saints/elect, who are converted (Rev. 5:9; 7:9), during this tribulation, will of course, be there. The elect of Matthew 24:21-22, who our author likes to crow about, are Jewish elect/saints—not Church Age elect/saints . . . These Jews are told to flee Judea (24:16), hopefully not on the Jewish "sabbath" (24:20). JEWS! Jewish elect!
____________________________________________________________

You claim the Elect of Matt.24 are Jewish Saints; not the Church Elect!
Why would Jesus "send the angels to gather the Jews from earth to
heaven" and leave Saints who "overcome to the End" on the earth?

Those who "survive to the End" are willing to die for Christ!! Do you also claim there are two ENDS for the Saints just as you claim there are two
or more LAST DAYS to "raise up all Believers"??

The Martyrs of the Great Tribulation will "serve God in heaven for 1000 years and the Lamb will be their shepherd"!!! What is your answer to the
question of what happens to Trib-Saints who "overcome to the End" and
who are left behind as you carelessly think???

Mel Miller www.lastday.net Seeking All the Truth; Not Just Half Truths.

 

[Herb Evans]

Mel Miller] Before you charge another with "A Second Big Lie, a Half Truth", please
see if you can establish the other Half Truth as the only part that is true:

Where were you charged on anything. I told you where you could count me. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

____________________________________________________________

How does your above claim of being "one in the truth thing" stack up
against what you wrote in post #38:

Quote:
We have been sent a letter and tract, distributed by a nonsectarian ship (without a flag, during war time), a so called "Christian Missionary Society," P.O. Box .4097, Phoenix, Arizona 85030 (a freelance, bloodsucking, para-church organization), which seeks to promote the theory that present day believers will go through the Tribulation. This cowardly author does not indicate his name but offers $ 100,000, in his news letter, for one scripture to prove the pre tribulation, rapture false doctrine. One can imagine what happens if it takes two verses or three to prove it. Still, the author looks for the Tribulation, but we look for a Saviour.

The tract offers $ 100,000, to anyone, who can prove Christians will be raptured before the soon coming great Tribulation. Still, the author does not produce one verse of scripture that proves the church "will" go through the Tribulation or that the Rapture is "not" imminent; he merely challenges and gainsays the opposition, a familiar tactic with eschatological false teachers. End of Quote
____________________________________________________________
This is an example of rancorous disunity!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net Seeking Unity in the Truth

I think my statement stacks up pretty good against what I wrote. I am under no obligation to be unified with falsehood but am admonished to reprove and correct falsehood. Why? Were you the one that offered the $ 100,000? Where there is error, there must meeds be disunity. -- Herb Evans

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

I think my statement stacks up pretty good against what I wrote. I am under no obligation to be unified with falsehood but am admonished to reprove and correct falsehood. Why? Were you the one that offered the $ 100,000? Where there is error, there must meeds be disunity. -- Herb Evans

___________________________________________________________

Jesus tells Trib-Saints to "watch for His coming and be blessed"!
Jesus promises to "raise up every/all Believers on the Last Day"!!
Jesus will "gather Trib-Saints from earth to heaven on that Day!!!

You claim the Elect of Matt.24 are Jewish Saints; not the Church Elect!
Why would Jesus "send the angels to gather the Jews from earth to
heaven" and leave Saints who "overcome to the End" on the earth?

Those who "survive to the End" are willing to die for Christ!! Do you also claim there are two ENDS for the Saints just as you claim there are two
or more LAST DAYS to "raise up all Believers"??

The Martyrs of the Great Tribulation will "serve God in heaven for 1000 years and the Lamb will be their shepherd"!!! What is your answer to the
question of what happens to Trib-Saints who "overcome to the End" and
who are left behind as you carelessly think???

Mel Miller www.lastday.net Seeking All the Truth; Not Just Half Truths.