BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ok -- that's a problem.
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Pope Francis: "Hell Does Not Exist"
- Thread starter InTheLight
- Start date
Ok -- that's a problem.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
True "destroyed both body and soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28 after that torment in fire and brimstone
Joseph shall add
Member
Well Rob i was once a very wicked man and i said something that God wanted to have a chat with me about. so he called me on it.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I have no problem with that idea.
But hell is described in Rev 20 as taking place after the 2nd coming.. and after the 1000 year millennium. It is of course a reasonable proposal that God would take you into the future with you being in the lake of fire to show you the danger to be avoided.
But it is unlikely for two reasons.
1. God did not do that to Saul who turned to Paul .. because the 'obey Me or I will shoot you like this" model is entirely opposed to God's system of "free will" where Love is the basis for obedience.. not a gun-to-the-head.
2. There is a very large amount of fiction and myth popular today where God is roasting all the wicked in hell constantly - every day. God is not "likely" to engage in a kind of "warning" that is in fact slipping into the "doctrinal error" side of the controversy that exists today between truth and error.
Joseph shall add
Member
God did not tell me to obey him or he would kill me. I challenged his integrity. He wanted to give me a wake up call. Which he did. How is God correcting one of his anointed sons slipping into Doctrinal error. No Doctrine going on here. Just Father God correcting one of his. You will notice i did not write a get rich book about it either.
gachristian
New Member
The 93 year old atheist reporter if an Italian leftist magazine admitted he listens to the answers and writes what he thinks he said. He admitted the Holy Father might not have said "exactly" what he wrote. This is not the first time the reporter has misquoted the Pope.
People will stories like this to spread venom and lies like this story. Check your source next time.
People will stories like this to spread venom and lies like this story. Check your source next time.
gachristian
New Member
"And, yes, you are full of surprises!! I hope you eventually find spiritual peace. I have, and it has been since I left my Baptist church to become a Catholic Christian.
“Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”
---St. Francis of Assisi"
You are not the only one Walter! Welcome Home!
“Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”
---St. Francis of Assisi"
You are not the only one Walter! Welcome Home!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
True. My point is that God already knows the controversy between truth and error... between the Bible and tradition. What atheist would not plead to be let out of the fires of hell if placed there for a few seconds?? That gun-to-the-head model has always been available -- but God has always been careful not to use it.
For example - the door of the ark closes 7 days BEFORE the flood. Having the door opened -- and then the rain and hurricane and thunder starts -- well "sure" everybody runs into the ark for shelter. That would be "gun-to-head run in or else".
God could have saved a whole planet load that way -- if He were open to that tactic.
He deliberately has the door shut 7 day before - because it solves nothing to have the wicked jump into the ark of safety out of momentary fear - only to return to wickedness when the storm is over and the water has gone away. Free will calls for a different solution.
Frank the hippy pope
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
ok that was funny!!
Yea...unfortunately it’s true too
No He cannot!
Destroyed does NOT mean to cease to exist, byt the quality of existing, to be ruined, to be apart from God forever!
heaven and hell are described using the same lenght of time though, as forever/always/eternally!
How would there be any real justice in your view than, as the Hilter and lady next door rejected Jesus would have the same judgement rendered!
The consequences are eternal.
They would not have the same judgment rendered, but they would have the same destiny -- destruction. The worse a sinner was, the longer they would face the suffering of their punishment.
It's interesting that you want to ask this question since the view you claim treats Hitler and the neighbor lady the same. Your view has the neighbor lady suffering for all eternity.
Moreover, how can God do away with sin and suffering when He is perpetuating eternal conscious torment? In your stated view, that's exactly what He will do.
Jesus Himself stated that there are degrees of punishment in hell, as God renders unto each according to what He/she did....
Demons and Satan face an eternal judgement in an eternal Hell, correct?
Joseph shall add
Member
Hell was created for the Demons and Satan. But fallen man also go there. And yes hell does have degrees.
One of the problems with discussing this subject is that so many people insist upon using the word, "hell," without defining it. And they do that honestly because many English translations of the scriptures use the word "hell" as a catch-all translation for a number of differ words with different meanings.
And yes, people are judged according to their deeds, not merely their profession.
By "eternal Hell" in your query, I am assuming you are referring to the Lake of Fire, the final destination of the wicked. However, if we are going to speak clearly and correctly about the Lake of Fire, we need to use the biblical language.
Here are all of the scriptural references to "lake of fire":
Revelation 19:19-20
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.
Revelation 20:10
...and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
Now that we have the texts, let's look at who was thrown into the lake of fire:
- The beast
- The false prophet
- The devil
- Death
- Hades
- Anyone whose name was not written in the book of life
- The cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars
However, the main point here is that the lake of fire is the final destination of everything that is wrong in God's creation. The lake of fire is described as "the second death" (Revelation 20:14; 21:8).
Now that we have established the future contents of the lake of fire -- persons, places, conditions, and perhaps symbols, let's move to the question about duration:
Revelation 20:10
...and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
"Tormented day and night for ever and ever" seems rather straightforward to our culture. However, the immediate context of passage, God is tells John that "the former things have passed away" and "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:4-5). The promise is placed between the two references to the "second death" in a chiasm (an ancient literary structure to emphasize what is in the middle of the passage).
So the idea is that all of those in the lake of fire experience the second death (cessation of life) and those who have been saved experience eternal life. But what about the "forever and ever" part of Revelation 20:10? Good question. If we look at all of the references to "forever and ever" in the scriptures, we will notice something interesting when that term is used to describe God's judgment:
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked;
You have blotted out their name forever and ever.
Isaiah 34:9-11 (Judgment against Edom - see Isaiah 34:50)
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
In the Psalm reference, "forever and ever" is used to emphasize how completely the wicked have been destroyed. The second reference, the prophecy against Edom, if forever and ever is to be taken literally, I would like to see the place in the Middle East where the smoke is continuing to ascend. Back when I was in Sunday School as a kid, this passage was presented by the teacher and I asked where we could see the smoke rising from Edom today. That led to a huge crisis of faith with the Sunday School teacher and made quite an impression on me. Eventually the pastor dropped by our class the next Sunday and explained that "forever and ever" was a phrase used by the Hebrews to describe total destruction and it should not necessarily be taken literally in all cases.
Since the weight of the evidence in the New Testament - especially from Jesus - is that the wicked die/are destroyed/perish/burned up, I understand the three New Testament references to what sounds like eternal conscious torment to be symbolic of total destruction.
I believe the devil and demons will face lengthy punishment, but I also believe they will cease to exist at some point in the providence of God.
Why is an eternal hell wrong?
I have to chime in on this one, because I have struggled with this one myself. I think our reaction is because, to us, pain is simply put that terrible. And an eternity of pain that incomprehensibly awful, especially if that pain is at a level of torment.