The big question though is how does God see it? is His view different and bigger pictured than ours?
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Pope Francis: "Hell Does Not Exist"
- Thread starter InTheLight
- Start date
Yeshua1,
That's a good point. He is the longsuffering God according to the bible. When you add up all the pain of the Trinity and then consider that they are sinless do-gooders, more innocent than babies. And when you add up all the pain experienced by those who suffered when others sinned against them just as we have ourselves have sinned, it becomes obvious that there will be no righting of wrongs this side of millions of years in torment to our own limited human understanding.
That's a good point. He is the longsuffering God according to the bible. When you add up all the pain of the Trinity and then consider that they are sinless do-gooders, more innocent than babies. And when you add up all the pain experienced by those who suffered when others sinned against them just as we have ourselves have sinned, it becomes obvious that there will be no righting of wrongs this side of millions of years in torment to our own limited human understanding.
The whole point of the suffering in hell is not to have people atone for their sins, like a kind of Cosmic Karma, but due to them mocking/rejecting the precious blood of the Son of God.
I never made the claim that "an eternal hell" is morally wrong. If that's what God wants to do, then that's fine with me.
I think the teaching of eternal conscious torment does not line up with scripture, so it is "wrong" in that sense.
God must think that forever living, if even in hell, superior to being burnt to a crisp!
No, He thinks it would be a horror.
In Genesis 3:22-24, the LORD God said:
"Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever..." -- therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
The thought of humankind eating from the tree of life in his/her unredeemed state and living forever in sin was so horrible to contemplate, the God did not finish His thought and instead made it impossible for Adam and Eve to have eternal life by driving them out of the garden and stationing the angels to keep them away from the tree of life.
For God to purposely keep someone in an unredeemed state for eternity would go against what God did here in Genesis 3:22-24.
Thank you for correcting me, I was thinking in terms of justice to be paid not Karma really. I now get that the parable of the Ten Minas shows He is in fact dealing with a rebellion as a king. For just one piece of the puzzle to understanding what is going on.
Adam and Eve were not in a glorified state, as the lost will have a glorified body even while in hell !
The real hell of Hell is that persons there will never experience any goodness, as it absent of God presense bring any relief to them. basically, its forever having their will be done, and to be apart from God!
Where do you get the idea that the lost will be glorified? They will be resurrected to stand judgment, but they will not share in a glorified body.
But even if your premise is true, what difference does it make? They would still be in a sinful, unredeemed state, and that's the point of Genesis 3:22-24.
They will have their ultimate wish granted to them by god, to be apart from him forever!
The biblical language is primarily that of flames. You are appropriating a modern version of hell as mere separation.
But you are still evading the point of Genesis 3:22-24. God thinks it is a horror for people to live eternally in an unredeemed state, so He ensured that Adam and Eve could not access the tree of life. Please note that the tree of life reappears in Revelation 22:2 and is the symbol of healing and eternal life. There is no tree of life in the lake of fire.
Only those who are redeemed may eat of the tree of life (Revelation 22:14).
At end of revelation, there are still lost persons outside of the eternal City, correct?
One is either in the New Jerusalem or in the lake of fire. The lost have all been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).
Those in the New Jerusalem have access to the tree of life. Those in the lake of fire do not.
The have immortal life in the lake of fire, not eternal life....
I've never heard of "immortal life" before, but people who possess eternal life are immortal. It seems you are really reaching to try to justify your position without scripture. Please stick to scripture because this is a scriptural issue, not an emotional, philosophical or grammatical issue.
Turning again to scripture, John the Baptist said:
Luke 3:17
His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
The lost will be burned up.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Jesus contrasts eternal life (saved) from perishing/death (lost).
Matthew 13:30, 37-43, 49-50
Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”
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And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
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So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Tares don't burn forever, they are consumed. Persons who are thrown into the lake of fire will eventually be consumed. The wicked will be consumed.
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So consumed sinners still are wailing and gnashing their teeth?
They will be until they are consumed.
Remember, the lake of fire is a future event. It comes after the Final Judgment.
What is the purpose to consume them?
Judgment and cleansing of sin from the created order.
As I pointed out before, God thinks living forever in an unregenerate state is too horrible to even contemplate.