Predestination: Meaning and Application

[Brother Bob]

Yea, that is good isn't it?:thumbs:

Wonder how they get around just this one Scripture

"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[Jarthur001]

He won't commit himself will he. When you commit yourself then you have to defend yourself. I believe the word myself. If you tell one story you don't have to remember what you said for its the same all the time. Well I tell the story of the Scriptures so I can keep it straight just like the following;

Hebrews, chapter 4

"1": Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

"2": For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

"3": For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Acts 26:20-26 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

Colossians 1:4-6 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Have they not heard?


John, chapter 1

6": There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

"7": The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

"8": He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

"10": He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Thanks Bob

Here is the deal. 1) None of these verse matter. The fact remains..and will always remain. Some hear more times then others. You cannot sit there and say that you think you... living in the Bible Bult..with many many churches...with many many preachers...did not have more chances to hear Gods Word...then some guy in wilds of kenya.

As poof...I give you romans 10..the very text we are looking at.

What do you think Paul meant when he said...

"How shall they hear without a preacher?"

Was this a trick?
or..
Did God though the Words of Paul mean this?

 

[saturneptune]

James,
What about all those people in the bible belt that have heard over and over and never respond? Just like as you say, the people in Kenya?

 

[Brother Bob]

Thanks Bob

Here is the deal. 1) None of these verse matter. The fact remains..and will always remain. Some hear more times then others. You cannot sit there and say that you think you... living in the Bible Bult..with many many churches...with many many preachers...did not have more chances to hear Gods Word...then some guy in wilds of kenya.

As poof...I give you romans 10..the very text we are looking at.

What do you think Paul meant when he said...

"How shall they hear without a preacher?"

Was this a trick?
or..
Did God though the Words of Paul mean this?

Pleaseeeeeeee read the rest and Paul was convinced the rest heard why can't you? Paul was not tricked, He wrote it.

15: And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18: But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19: But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20: But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

James answer this Scripture;
"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[Jarthur001]

James,
What about all those people in the bible belt that have heard over and over and never respond? Just like as you say, the people in Kenya?

before we get to this...

Let me ask you as a Calvinist that you have claimed to be...please give your views on the Romans chapter 10.

I have yet to here your views on any passage.

If your to ashamed to share..just say so..and I'll not ask you again to share Gods Word.

If you are not...please share.


Thanks

 

[Brother Bob]

James;
Please give me your veiw on this Scripture;

"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[Jarthur001]

Pleaseeeeeeee read the rest and Paul was convinced the rest heard why can't you? Paul was not tricked, He wrote it.

18: But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

yes..tis what it says. The word has been preached...around the world.

Now........has all heard as much as others?

I have been to mission fields where NNE has even heard the name of Christ. Lets call this guy Joe.

Bob....how many times have you heard in 60+ years?

I do not know...but I bet it is more then 200 times..being that you are a preacher.

So..lets say 200

Bob...200

Joe...1

Who has heard more..bob or Joe?

 

[Jarthur001]

James;
Please give me your veiw on this Scripture;

"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

You got to be kidding. Better read that passage again before you ask a Calvinist about John 1.

 

[saturneptune]

Romans 10 has many subjects, but centering on Romans 10:18, I would agree that without men called of God to preach the Gospel, salvation would escape all who did not hear. However, that does not mean all who hear the Gospel believe. If there are other verses in question, let me know. Which is why I wanted you to answer my question first.

 

[Brother Bob]

I doubt it but there are a lot who you are referring to that have heard false doctrine instead of the truth. There is more false doctrine going around than the real thing. Its a money thing now and has been taken out of yours and my hands. Money is much stronger than we are and now for the sake of tithes they will say or do anything.
but, your point is well taken about the two legged preacher being more abundant here than in Kenya or somewhere but according to Scripture they have received the word, and that has been the question all along, not who received the most word.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
James;
Please give me your veiw on this Scripture;

"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
You got to be kidding. Better read that passage again before you ask a Calvinist about John 1.

No Sir: I shun no part of the Bible. If its against my belief then I will change to be in line with the Scripture. So what is your answer please.

 

[Jarthur001]

Romans 10 has many subjects, but centering on Romans 10:18, I would agree that without men called of God to preach the Gospel, salvation would escape all who did not hear. However, that does not mean all who hear the Gospel believe. If there are other verses in question, let me know. Which is why I wanted you to answer my question first.

the point...

has some had more times to hear then others?

thus..

Has some men had more grace given to them by God then others?

Not to JUST pick on you. But this is so clear..why not just say yes?? Bob? Saturn? Blammo? Anybody?

 

[Brother Bob]

No, preaching is not Grace. I say NO!!! The Gospel is Grace, even the devil has his preachers and plenty of them.

 

[Brother Bob]

saturnptune;

You say the preacher must get there then in verse 18 it says they have heard so are you saying the preacher got to them?

18: But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[Jarthur001]

No Sir: I shun no part of the Bible. If its against my belief then I will change to be in line with the Scripture. So what is your answer please.

Bob,

Now that is more like it. I like the good bold spirit..with no fight. Now my post..

****************

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Now Comes the Test....

1) Who is the light?
2) Had the light come to earth?
3) Does the light have the power to save men all that received the light and make then the Sons of God?
4) Did the world know Him and receive Him?


Now pass your papers forward.

My guess is that not one freewiller will answer these. We shall see

 

[Jarthur001]

No, preaching is not Grace. I say NO!!!

You mean you can say you have been graced to have a car and a house, and yet to Hear Gods word to you is not grace?

If this is what you mean...you better step down from your job today. Tha is bold...but I must say it.

14But how are people to call upon Him Whom they have not believed [in Whom they have no faith, on Whom they have no reliance]? And how are they to believe in Him [adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him] of Whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?

15And how can men [be expected to] preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings! [How welcome is the coming of those who preach the good news of His good things!](F)

16But they have not all heeded the Gospel; for Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed (had faith in) what he has heard from us?(G)

17So faith comes by hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the preaching [of the message that came from the lips] of Christ (the Messiah Himself).

18But I ask, Have they not heard? Indeed they have; [for the Scripture says] Their voice [that of nature bearing God's message] has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the far bounds of the world.(H)

19Again I ask, Did Israel not understand? [Did the Jews have no warning that the Gospel was to go forth to the Gentiles, to all the earth?] First, there is Moses who says, I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.(I)

20Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, I have been found by those who did not seek Me; I have shown (revealed) Myself to those who did not [consciously] ask for Me.(J)

21But of Israel he says, All day long I have stretched out My hands to a people unyielding and disobedient and self-willed [to a faultfinding, contrary, and contradicting people].

But we have been in the easy stuff so far.

Lets seal this once and for all.

Romans 9

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Do we have a God in control or what?

Election is the work of God. Can I have an amen?


In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

Why would you say that. I don't understand. He came to His own "elect" but they received Him not. He broke down the middle wall of partition between the Jew and the Greek so that the way was made for the Gentile also but He had to die to complete this. So what you are referring to now is when He first came and said go ye not the way of the Gentiles, but after His resurrection He called them together again and said Now, go ye into all the world and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. amen,

1) Who is the light?
2) Had the light come to earth?
3) Does the light have the power to save men all that received the light and make then the Sons of God?
4) Did the world know Him and receive Him?

1. The True Light is Jesus Christ
2. The True Light was made flesh and born of a woman on earth.
3. The True Light is the Saviour of the world and a special Saviour to the believer.
4. The world knew Him not before He gave His life but after He said they shall know me from the least unto the greatest. And go not to your neighbor saying know ye the Lord. When His plan was completed yes according to the Scriptures they did know Him.
Even the soldier that peirced Him in the side confessed and said "truly this is the Son of Man".

 

[Brother Bob]

You mean you can say you have been graced to have a car and a house, and yet to Hear Gods word to you is not grace?

If this is true wonder why He only found Grace in the eyes of one man in Noah's days.
But I did edit my response so you might want to go back and look.

 

[Jarthur001]

Why would you say that. I don't understand. He came to His own "elect" but they received Him not. ,

Who are the elect you speak of Bob?

 

[Jarthur001]

Nothing like adding to the text...right Bob. Do you ever go by context. Lets see what we have here.

4. The world knew Him not before He gave His life but after He said they shall know me from the least unto the greatest. And go not to your neighbor saying know ye the Lord. When His plan was completed yes according to the Scriptures they did know Him.
Even the soldier that peirced Him in the side confessed and said "truly this is the Son of Man

Can a man be saved without the atonement of Christ toward God for our sins?