Predestination

[Sai]

If someone is literally unable to believe then they could not be guilty of rejecting the truth so as to be saved .

People do not go to hell because they rejected the gospel. They go to hell because of sin.

 

[Barry Johnson]

It is a fact that those tribes around the world had no contact with anyone connected to the gospel. South America, Polynesia, Japan. The fact is that throughout the entire Old Testament no one was saved besides Israel and those who proselyted into their religion. The masses of races of people died without God

Noah was not a jew ? they began ' calling upon God throughout the bible . Abraham was not born a Jew.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Noah was not a jew ? they began ' calling upon God throughout the bible . Abraham was not born a Jew.

People were clearly Calling upon God before the Law also. it's always been by faith . but how to appropriate has clearly been different at different ages . But all could only be saved by faith . Which is happening all over the bible ( not just Jews )

 

[Sai]

so your conclusion is what? What is her path to salvation or are you saying because she can’t understand scripture then she is relegated to hell?!?

The Bible says she and I inherited Adam’s sin and were born dead to God, already condemned to hell. My conclusions are not mine, this is what scripture says. I would trust in God because he does all things well. I refuse to go beyond what is written, I refuse to judge whether what is written in fair, the scriptures are my final authority. David said that he would see his son. Perhaps that can give us hope. But the imputation of sin by physical birth is a biblical reality. And the imputation of the righteousness of God in Christ comes by faith. Even the faith of a mustard seed. I would think that she has more faith than do we as her life must be challenged to the extreme. We do not know what she is capable of hearing.
My pastor has a 30 year old son who is paraplegic and needs to be fed, changed etc. the same pastor has an adopted son of 15 who is blind and bed ridden, and has another that is blind and bed ridden neither can speak. They were dropped off at his home by child protective services as drug babies - shaken babies. He told me that he has learned what love means from his experience because they cannot love him back, like our existence before the Lord who loves us when we can’t even love him back as we still struggle in our flesh.

 

[Barry Johnson]

People were clearly Calling upon God before the Law also. it's always been by faith . but how to appropriate has clearly been different at different ages . But all could only be saved by faith . Which is happening all over the bible ( not just Jews )

Everyone who was ever saved is not recorded in the bible . Obviously this would make the bible an enormous book to read if that was the case lol

 

[Barry Johnson]

The Bible says she and I inherited Adam’s sin and were born dead to God, already condemned to hell. My conclusions are not mine, this is what scripture says. I would trust in God because he does all things well. I refuse to go beyond what is written, I refuse to judge whether what is written in fair, the scriptures are my final authority. David said that he would see his son. Perhaps that can give us hope. But the imputation of sin by physical birth is a biblical reality. And the imputation of the righteousness of God in Christ comes by faith. Even the faith of a mustard seed. I would think that she has more faith than do we as her life must be challenged to the extreme. We do not know what she is capable of hearing.
My pastor has a 30 year old son who is paraplegic and needs to be fed, changed etc. the same pastor has an adopted son of 15 who is blind and bed ridden, and has another that is blind and bed ridden neither can speak. They were dropped off at his home by child protective services as drug babies - shaken babies. He told me that he has learned what love means from his experience because they cannot love him back, like our existence before the Lord who loves us when we can’t even love him back as we still struggle in our flesh.

Where does it say we inherited the guilt of Adam's sin ? where does it say we lost the ability to positively respond to the revalation God brings?

 

[Sai]

Noah was not a jew ? they began ' calling upon God throughout the bible . Abraham was not born a Jew.

Everyone Croaked in the flood Barry. And after that everyone built a tower. Then after Abe and company again the whole world was lost and did not seek the God of Abraham. Shem lived 502 years after the flood long enough to have witnessed the birth of Isaac. Pretty small minority of believers according to the text.

 

[Sai]

Everyone who was ever saved is not recorded in the bible . Obviously this would make the bible an enormous book to read if that was the case lol

Yea it does, no one was saved, very few. Even Elijah wanted God to end his life. Only 7000 out of probably 4 million Israelites were saved during his day.

 

[Dave G]

The bible says the Gospel IS the power of God UNTO salvation.

To them that believe, yes, it is.

" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." ( Romans 1:16 ).

 

[Dave G]

So why are you not preaching down at the cemetery?

" But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:8-10 ).

" And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ).

 

[Sai]

Where does it say we inherited the guilt of Adam's sin ? where does it say we lost the ability to positively respond to the revalation God brings?

By Adams sin death was brought upon all, now by the righteousness of another, Jesus, life and grace has entered the world.

You seem to think that everyone is good until they commit their first act of sin yet scripture says we were conceived in iniquity.

Infant death is because of universal sin. If everyone was not guilty before exiting the womb then why wouldn’t God let every single human die in childbirth and beam us all into heaven Barry? Wouldn’t that have saved the sufferings of believers in this world? And wouldn’t that save all humanity before they became murderers and adulterers?

No. What that would mean Barry is that there was no need for a purchase price to redeem that which was lost. What you fail to recognize is that salvation is not a pardon nor is it amnesty nor is salvation mere forgiveness. There was a debt that was made and that debt can not be paid in time thus the debt was paid by another and now we are free, no longer unrighteous, we need not fear any type of punishment at all and we say praise God.

 

[Dave G]

And so how many times in the scriptures is predestined used?

A few.

Romans 8, Ephesians 1.

 

[Dave G]

Why didn't you read the verses that clearly say we are saved after we believe

I did, and I once believed that...
Then I saw this:

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 )
" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ).

..and I went, "whoa, horsey".

 

[Barry Johnson]

People do not go to hell because they rejected the gospel. They go to hell because of sin.

Chapter and verse please?

 

[Barry Johnson]

I did, and I once believed that...
Then I saw this:

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 )
" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ).

..and I went, "whoa, horsey".

So before the cross by the Father drawing they could come , all the ones ( sheep )which heard of the Father could come . . All after the cross would be drawn ...him being the light of the world . Do all come ? For sure before the cross the diciples were drawn by the father and chosen. including Judas .

 

[Barry Johnson]

So before the cross by the Father drawing they could come , all the ones ( sheep )which heard of the Father could come . . All after the cross would be drawn ...him being the light of the world . Do all come ? For sure before the cross the diciples were drawn by the father and chosen. including Judas .

But the Father is not drawing today nor is the Holy Spirit . unless you have a verse ? After the cross?

 

[Van]

Happens towards the chosen in Christ by God, before they received Jesus thru faith!

Utterly false, we are chosen through or on the basis of faith when credited by God as righteousness.

 

[Barry Johnson]

So before the cross by the Father drawing they could come , all the ones ( sheep )which heard of the Father could come . . All after the cross would be drawn ...him being the light of the world . Do all come ? For sure before the cross the diciples were drawn by the father and chosen. including Judas .

We are not ' given by the Father 'today . That was to those before the cross . that could come to Jesus . Could come . it doesnt mean they all came . it just means they could .

 

[Yeshua1]

Here, I'll bold the part I think he's missing, EWF ( look above )...
I remember distinctly, when I once believed this "order of salvation", sitting in church as a young believer and hearing the pastor tell me...
" ...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..." ( Acts of the Apostles 16:31 ).

I believed those words then, and I still believe them now.

Much later, I discovered that there was more to the Bible than what he quoted and that, while this was still true, it was the whole "how to get saved" part that I began to disagree with.
When the Lord showed me Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, it all started to change for me.

@Barry Johnson :
The thing that saves a person is this, Barry...

" not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:5-7 ).

We believe because we are saved, not to gain God's favor and get Him to save us.
In truth, the very thing that saves a person is God Himself, and we react to His decision and His work in us as the targets of that salvation.

He bestows the gift of eternal life, we don't earn it by our belief.
That is how grace works, biblically.

It's not a cooperative effort between man and God, but an operative effort by God towards us as sinful men.

We were all children of wrath before God in His grace saved us!

 

[Yeshua1]

Utterly false, we are chosen through or on the basis of faith when credited by God as righteousness.

Saving faith itself is a gift from God towards us, so how can we get credit for something God Himself has done?