Prove it.

[OldRegular]

Paul doesn't teaching unconditional salvation in his epistles.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Then what does Paul mean in the following Scripture?

Romans 8:29-39
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What does Jesus Christ mean by the Following Scripture?

John 10:27-30, KJV
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.

 

[OldRegular]

God's promise is a promise; those who are saved are sealed by the Holy Spirit and seated in the heavenlies. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit is a deposit - pledge - guarantee - of our salvation.

An excellent post Marcia!

 

[Amy.G]

No, not at all.
I would never be so arrogant and full of pride as to pray such a prayer. The fact is that I can never be found worthy of the blood he shed for me (us). I am totally unworthy. That is why it is called grace, and why salvation is by grace through faith. I am not worthy. He is providing something I do not deserve, will never deserve, cannot deserve, am not worthy of and never will be. I praise and thank him, that though I am unworthy he provided salvation through his blood anyway.

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Amen! :applause:

 

[annsni]

No, not at all.
I would never be so arrogant and full of pride as to pray such a prayer. The fact is that I can never be found worthy of the blood he shed for me (us). I am totally unworthy. That is why it is called grace, and why salvation is by grace through faith. I am not worthy. He is providing something I do not deserve, will never deserve, cannot deserve, am not worthy of and never will be. I praise and thank him, that though I am unworthy he provided salvation through his blood anyway.

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Amen! :godisgood:

 

[Marcia]

HP: Excellent thought. Oh God, help me to be found worthy of the blood you shed for us! Should that not be the prayer of every born again believer?

None of us can be found worthy! That's the whole point of the atonement!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[OldRegular]

What difference does it make?

I am not a dispensationalist but the difference it makes is that you are incorrect, just as you are in most of your responses on this thread. You have yet to post one Scripture that proves that God cannot keep Eternally Secure those who are His..

The point is, a man who calls himself a dispensationalist believes he is saved differently than O.T. saints. This is what Amy and Ann have said. That the people Christ spoke to were in a "transitional period". Transitioning from what? Either they must claim it was works plus faith or pure works, something other than just faith. The fact is man has always been redeemed by faith and obedience, faith produces obedience.

Scripture teaches throughout that man is justified by faith. That is a fact. Simply note what James states in Verse 2:23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Now why was righteousness imputed to Abraham? Because he believed God. I realize that some will scream that I am taking this passage out of context. That is incorrect since James is simply repeating the truth taught in Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

I will agree that Salvation produces obedience. The Apostle Paul states this in Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If we read the first 9 verses of Ephesians 2 we see that salvation is only by the Grace of God: Nothing else. Those who contend otherwise are making a lie out of Scripture and are invalidating the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Incidentally I believe Amy has refuted the statement referring to her as I would expect.

 

[JSM17]

The author of Hebrews seems to think that there is a chance that these christians could do the same as those in the wilderness.

Heb 4:7

7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."NKJV

The whole letter speaks this language.

Heb 2:1
Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.NKJV

Heb 3:6

6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
NKJV

Heb 3:12-15

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."NKJV

Heb 4:1
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.NKJV

Heb 4:11
Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.NKJV

Now Hebrews 5:11 shows that the author is speaking to Christians:
Heb 5:11-12
of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
NKJV

This can be seen through out the whole letter, it is warning to not be like those in the wilderness, if it were not possible for those who belong to God to harden their hearts and turn from God then why does the whole letter give attention to the possiblity. If there were no possibilities of falling then why all these warnings?

Is he warning none christians to not fall away from something they do not have?

Is the author worried that non christians will harden their hearts and not enter the rest?

If those who are of the house of Jesus (3:6) could never fall away then why does the author tell them "hold fast the confidence" and "firm to the end" if it was not possible?

How can one who is not of the Lord depart from the Lord if he never had the Lord? 3:12

If one is a partaker of Christ, why the need to hold fast till the end, if it was not possible that this could happen? 3:14

Why would he quote "Do not harden your hearts" to partakers of Christ? 3:15

I could go on within the context, but if the post is to long then I run the chance of it not being read. This is plain as can be, there is enough right here to show that falling away is possible. This is only the first 5 chapters there are still many more.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Old Regular, if you lived in the OT and claimed to be in a right relationship with God, tell us how you got to be in such a relationship. If one walked up to and asked you how they could be in a right relationship with God, what would you have told them? Scriptural referenced needed if possible.

 

[OldRegular]

HP: Excellent thought. Oh God, help me to be found worthy of the blood you shed for us! Should that not be the prayer of every born again believer?

HP has unwittingly [I assume] stated the gross error of his [and Martin Luther's] doctrine, the belief in a works based salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

OR: HP has unwittingly [I assume] stated the gross error of his [and Martin Luther's] doctrine, the belief in a works based salvation.

HP: The funny thing is that the Word of God supports what you call “gross error” and a “works based salvation.” How would you describe the ’first works’ Scripture speaks of that are necessary for salvation OR?

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

[OldRegular]

Old Regular, if you lived in the OT and claimed to be in a right relationship with God, tell us how you got to be in such a relationship. If one walked up to and asked you how they could be in a right relationship with God, what would you have told them? Scriptural referenced needed if possible.

First: The above question has nothing to do with the OP. You are very good at sidetracking threads by quibbling about words.

Second: Have you answered a single question posed to you on this Forum? Have you responded to the challenge that Amy presented in the OP? I believe the answer is NO. You ask a question only to quibble with the answer. You have the gall to say: Scriptural referenced needed if possible. Yet you have refused to respond to numerous Scripture I have posted on this Forum showing that God keeps Eternally Secure those who are His. If God saves me by His Grace then I am kept Eternally Secure by His Grace, not by my works. Those who deny this Biblical truth are, in actuality, teaching a salvation by works which is a damnable doctrine, another gospel, and totally contrary to Scripture.

Galatians 1:6-9
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

By the way, if you want an answer to your question read the Old Testament!

 

[Amy.G]

HP: The funny thing is that the Word of God supports what you call “gross error” and a “works based salvation.” How would you describe the ’first works’ Scripture speaks of that are necessary for salvation OR?

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

What things is Jesus talking about? Worthy to escape what?
What things will come to pass?
I can tell you He's not talking about salvation here.

Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

This is addressed to the church in Ephesus, not to an individual and it's not about removing one's salvation. Although the Lord had some good things to say about this church, He says they have fallen away from the works they did at first. They have lost their zeal and if they do not repent He will remove His Spirit from that church, not revoke individual salvation.

Rev. 2:5 Fallen
G1601
ἐκπίπτω
ekpiptō
ek-pip'-to
From G1537 and G4098; to drop away; specifically be driven out of one’s course; figuratively to lose, become inefficient: - be cast, fail, fall (away, off), take none effect.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

OldRegular,

The context of Romans 8:29-39 is not mentioned about sin. It explains about God's character, ad his LOVE. And God knows us as we are His elect. Everything of situations, conditions, trials, troubles, persecutions cannot separate us from God's Love.

John 10:27-29 talking about Christ's promise to us that while we as sheep are hear(listening God's Word), and to follow Christ, long as we are remain secure in Christ's hand, no one can take us away from his hand. Christ have the power to secure us while we listen God's Word and still follow Him at the same time all the way till we die. Or, otherwise, if we stopped follow Christ, Christ would loose us out of His hand.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Amy G.,

You mentioned of Rev. 2:5.

True, Rev. 2:5 was addressed to the church of Ephesus as local church during John's time. Yet, all of the seven churches of Asia(present Turkey) are apply to us as individual throughout all ages between first advent and second advent.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Amy G.

You are in error saying of Luke 21:36 that you saying this verse that Christ was not talking about salvation. Ok, what if suppose we do not watch and ready at His coming, what would happen to us? In Luke 17:34-37 warn us, if we do not watch, He would come and thief us quickly. "Thief" is not always mean so called rapture. Also, it speaks of supernatural force with power by being taken away by angels without expecting. For the purpose to gathering all nations who are not watch and ready for Lord's coming, would end up as goats, will be stand before the throne of Christ(Judgment Day), and then cast away in to lake of fire.

Watch means prepared with our spiritual walk life be ready all the times, because He will come to judge us. If we do not ready, we would be end up as thief, join with goats, to be cast away into lake of fire.

Yes, Luke 21:36 is a serious matter of salvation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Amy.G]

John 10:27-29 talking about Christ's promise to us that while we as sheep are hear(listening God's Word), and to follow Christ, long as we are remain secure in Christ's hand, no one can take us away from his hand. Christ have the power to secure us while we listen God's Word and still follow Him at the same time all the way till we die. Or, otherwise, if we stopped follow Christ, Christ would loose us out of His hand.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Jesus does not lose His sheep.

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[OldRegular]

OldRegular,

The context of Romans 8:29-39 is not mentioned about sin. It explains about God's character, ad his LOVE. And God knows us as we are His elect. Everything of situations, conditions, trials, troubles, persecutions cannot separate us from God's Love.

You correctly state that this passage is about the elect of God and nothing can separate us from His love. Verse 30 simply shows that God will effectually call, justify, and glorify those whom He has elected to Salvation in Jesus Christ. If He is going to glorify those He has called and justified then he must keep them Eternally Secure.

John 10:27-29 talking about Christ's promise to us that while we as sheep are hear(listening God's Word), and to follow Christ, long as we are remain secure in Christ's hand, no one can take us away from his hand. Christ have the power to secure us while we listen God's Word and still follow Him at the same time all the way till we die. Or, otherwise, if we stopped follow Christ, Christ would loose us out of His hand.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Jesus Christ states in this passage that He gives His sheep Eternal Life and they shall never perish. Now does Jesus Christ lie? There is absolutely nothing conditional in His statement.

You are inserting your thoughts into this passage and are making Salvation the work of man, not of God. Please read the passage again. When I was on this Forum some years back I thought you believed in the Eternal Security of the believer. Am I wrong?

John 10:27-29
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

They are His sheep, they are in His hand, they are in God's hand, and God will keep them in His hand. It is that simple.

 

[Martin Luther]

First: The above question has nothing to do with the OP. You are very good at sidetracking threads by quibbling about words.

Second: Have you answered a single question posed to you on this Forum? Have you responded to the challenge that Amy presented in the OP? I believe the answer is NO. You ask a question only to quibble with the answer. You have the gall to say: Scriptural referenced needed if possible. Yet you have refused to respond to numerous Scripture I have posted on this Forum showing that God keeps Eternally Secure those who are His. If God saves me by His Grace then I am kept Eternally Secure by His Grace, not by my works. Those who deny this Biblical truth are, in actuality, teaching a salvation by works which is a damnable doctrine, another gospel, and totally contrary to Scripture.

Galatians 1:6-9
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

By the way, if you want an answer to your question read the Old Testament!

First of all Paul was talking about men earning their own salvation APART FROM CHRIST, working for their OWN account, denying Christ and earning heaven by their own merits. We are not saying that at all. This is why it is so important to understand that the jews were a religious group based on “good works” (The law) and were not a direct reference to Israelites. In Galatians Paul was pointing out an error in some of the thinking in the Church. Christ is our master first and foremost. We are obedient through Him and by Him. We obey His gospel and serve Him out of faith and fear. We serve BECAUSE we have faith. We are obedient because we fear His judgment. There is no magical sinner’s prayer that will save you if you are disobedient. You must continue in the faith, in obedience. Those who remain obedient will receive grace in the day of judgment.


Philippians 3:10-19

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.



2 Timothy 2:18

18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.






Romans 2:6-12

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God.

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;





2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;




Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

[Martin Luther]

HP: Excellent thought. Oh God, help me to be found worthy of the blood you shed for us! Should that not be the prayer of every born again believer?

"Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,"

Amen!