Proverbs 23:31

[annsni]

Jesus did call it grape juice when He called it the 'fruit of the vine'.

God's Word does call it grape juice when He calls it wine that is still in the cluster.

Open your eyes when reading God's Word.

The only time Jesus calls it the 'fruit of the vine' is when he's speaking to the disciples at the last supper. Jesus didn't call it grape juice but fruit of the vine. There's a difference. Fruit of the vine is more generic and can mean either grape juice, vinegar or wine - anything that can be made to drink from the fruit.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

hmmmmmmmmm

Fruit of the vine means grape juice, since Jesus was Sinless.

 

[annsni]

You mean to tell me we don't get grape juice from grapes? Amazing!

No, I'm saying that 'fruit of the vine' doesn't automatically mean grape juice any more than 'meat' means stew meat or a T-bone. It could TOTALLY mean chopped meat instead just as 'fruit of the vine' can mean wine.

Ann

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Why would the Lord put in His Body that which doctors have proven destroys brain cells?

Would not His body be contaminated if He did? Would not His Body brain have been damaged since doctors have proven without a doubt that from the moment it enters the bloodstream it is carried to the brain and cells there are destroyed?

Would not He become unable to be the sufficient sacrifice for man's sin since alcohol is a narcotic, as stated by medical science? Since putting a narcotic substance in His system would contaminate Him?

Not just Bible, history, medical and scientific facts prove He could not have drank alcoholic wine, but also just plain logic also proves this.

Of course, when the mind is clouded by the deception that alcohol causes, one cannot rightly divide the Word of Truth concerning this matter.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Carbon dioxide destroys brain cells as well. Are you going to quit breathing?

Oh, and marijuana does not destroy brains cells (except for the CO2 that you breath in), so are you going to start smoking pot?

Your blood has the ability to regenerate lost brain cells under normal wear and tear.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Continue to try to justify sin by foolish analogy's. No one will be able to justify their sin before a Holy God.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Why would the Lord put in His Body that which doctors have proven destroys brain cells?

Carbon dioxide destroys brain cells.

I'm just pointing out the absurdity of your reasoning that is trying to justify a modern belief that runs contrary to Scripture.

Your justification is that alcohol destroys brain cells. So does CO2.

Do you think the Lord had CO2 in his body?

 

[tinytim]

Of course this line of reasoning is what the gnostics taught... "since the flesh is imperfect, Jesus could not have had real flesh...."
They taught that anything that was pleasant was sin.
Anything in the natural is sin.
So since Jesus was sinless, he couldnt have had a real body.
see how absurd this is.

This is heresy.

 

[annsni]

Why would the Lord put in His Body that which doctors have proven destroys brain cells?

Would not His body be contaminated if He did? Would not His Body brain have been damaged since doctors have proven without a doubt that from the moment it enters the bloodstream it is carried to the brain and cells there are destroyed?

Would not He become unable to be the sufficient sacrifice for man's sin since alcohol is a narcotic, as stated by medical science? Since putting a narcotic substance in His system would contaminate Him?

Not just Bible, history, medical and scientific facts prove He could not have drank alcoholic wine, but also just plain logic also proves this.

Of course, when the mind is clouded by the deception that alcohol causes, one cannot rightly divide the Word of Truth concerning this matter.

Jesus also touched the sick and lepers - did that make Him sick and have leprosy?

Ann

 

[menageriekeeper]

No one will be able to justify their sin before a Holy God.

I'm not depending on myself to justify my sin, PTL. My sins are justified, as I hope are your own, by the blood of Christ.

Not just Bible, history, medical and scientific facts prove He could not have drank alcoholic wine, but also just plain logic also proves this.

My, my, my, where I have been, under a rock!? Please provide any kind of medical or scientific reference that prove Christ couldn't have drunk wine. You really have a historical reference that proves dynamically that Christ never let a drop of wine pass His lips?

Now, when you are done with that, please show me where you get the authority to call something (anything, not just drinking alcohol) a sin, when God Himself hasn't called it a sin? Being a drunk is called sin, simply drinking a glass of wine is not and you can't find a passage in scripture that calls it sin.

There is a big difference between something being unwise (as I believe alcohol consumption to be) and something being outright sin.

And when you are finished with all that I still want this question answered:

All you folks arguing about what kind of wine the Bible speaks of, do you not believe that if God meant to speak as to non-acoholic wine He would have clearly said grape juice? Is our God so weak that He can't see to the proper translation of the Word that He embodies?

And let me just leave you with what Christ had to say about things that enter a man:

Mt 15:11Not that which entereth into the mouth defileth the man; but that which proceedeth out of the mouth, this defileth the man.

Mt 15:17Perceive ye not, that whatsoever goeth into the mouth passeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?Mt 15:18But the things which proceed out of the mouth come forth out of the heart; and they defile the man.

Mr 7:15there is nothing from without the man, that going into him can defile him; but the things which proceed out of the man are those that defile the man.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

It has all been posted in the past threads. But, when you read those threads with your mind already made up, you are not going to accept the truth.

As was said earlier, many would not accept it if Jesus Christ Himself knocked on their doors and told them it was wrong; which He has already did in His Holy Word.

Historians such as Josephus have pointed out that it was non-alcoholic wine.

But just as Abraham told the rich man in hell, they did not believe the prophets, they would not believe one who returned from the dead, they do not believe the Word of God; why should they believe a historical figure?

Let me leave you with what Solomon said...
...their hearts shall utter perverse things.

Yes, Jesus said it is not that which enters into the mouth, but, if one abstains completely, their heart will not utter perverse things such as "Jesus drank alcoholic wine.'

 

[menageriekeeper]

Yes, Jesus said it is not that which enters into the mouth, but, if one abstains completely, their heart will not utter perverse things such as "Jesus drank alcoholic wine.'

LOL! I just love it when I ask a perfectly logical question and provide clear scripture as to what Christ said would defile a man and then get accused of uttering preversion.

Let me just give you a bit more of that scripture:

Mt 15:7Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,Mt 15:8This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me.Mt 15:9But in vain do they worship me, Teaching [as their] doctrines the precepts of men.Mt 15:10And he called to him the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:Mt 15:11Not that which entereth into the mouth defileth the man; but that which proceedeth out of the mouth, this defileth the man.Mt 15:12Then came the disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, when they heard this saying?Mt 15:13But he answered and said, Every plant which my heavenly Father planted not, shall be rooted up.Mt 15:14Let them alone: they are blind guides. And if the blind guide the blind, both shall fall into a pit.Mt 15:15And Peter answered and said unto him, Declare unto us the parable.Mt 15:16And he said, Are ye also even yet without understanding?Mt 15:17Perceive ye not, that whatsoever goeth into the mouth passeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?Mt 15:18But the things which proceed out of the mouth come forth out of the heart; and they defile the man.Mt 15:19For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:Mt 15:20these are the things which defile the man;



Not only have I never said, implied or claimed that Christ drank water, much less wine, I still haven't had my very simple questions answered. I'm going to repeat them one more time in the hope that someone out has an answer:

Did John the Baptist abstain from wine because: a) it was sin or b) he took seriously the vow of the Nazarite that God had placed on him.

Do we serve a God who is too weak to preserve His own Word through the translation to English? If Christ can't maintain His words through translation into different languages, how is it possible for Him to maintain my soul? What are you people thinking with these kinds of arguements?

See, it's not a question anymore of whether or not Christ made wine at the wedding, the scripture calls it WINE. Therefore the question becomes: Do we believe the plain teaching of the Word? Does the Word contain an error? If the Word can contain an error, then how do I know that Christ died for me? I'm relying on the Word, if I can't rely on It, on what can I rely?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

LOL! I just love it when I ask a perfectly logical question and provide clear scripture as to what Christ said would defile a man and then get accused of uttering preversion.

Let me just give you a bit more of that scripture:

Mt 15:7Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,Mt 15:8This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me.Mt 15:9But in vain do they worship me, Teaching [as their] doctrines the precepts of men.Mt 15:10And he called to him the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:Mt 15:11Not that which entereth into the mouth defileth the man; but that which proceedeth out of the mouth, this defileth the man.Mt 15:12Then came the disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, when they heard this saying?Mt 15:13But he answered and said, Every plant which my heavenly Father planted not, shall be rooted up.Mt 15:14Let them alone: they are blind guides. And if the blind guide the blind, both shall fall into a pit.Mt 15:15And Peter answered and said unto him, Declare unto us the parable.Mt 15:16And he said, Are ye also even yet without understanding?Mt 15:17Perceive ye not, that whatsoever goeth into the mouth passeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?Mt 15:18But the things which proceed out of the mouth come forth out of the heart; and they defile the man.Mt 15:19For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:Mt 15:20these are the things which defile the man;



Not only have I never said, implied or claimed that Christ drank water, much less wine, I still haven't had my very simple questions answered. I'm going to repeat them one more time in the hope that someone out has an answer:

Did John the Baptist abstain from wine because: a) it was sin or b) he took seriously the vow of the Nazarite that God had placed on him.

Do we serve a God who is too weak to preserve His own Word through the translation to English? If Christ can't maintain His words through translation into different languages, how is it possible for Him to maintain my soul? What are you people thinking with these kinds of arguements?

See, it's not a question anymore of whether or not Christ made wine at the wedding, the scripture calls it WINE. Therefore the question becomes: Do we believe the plain teaching of the Word? Does the Word contain an error? If the Word can contain an error, then how do I know that Christ died for me? I'm relying on the Word, if I can't rely on It, on what can I rely?

Christ did produce wine at that wedding, yes. But He most certainly did not produce alcoholic wine. He would not be the sacrifice that was needed if He tainted His blood with alcoholic wine, nor would He be the sacrifice that was needed if He provided wine to people, knowing that it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder.

To imply He would do such things is heresy.

 

[whatever]

What do you call non-alocoholic wine?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Honestly, I don't understand. How can two people who are reading the same scripture not come to the same understanding?

What does "it is not what enters a man that defileth a man" mean?

What does "Perceive ye not, that whatsoever goeth into the mouth passeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?" mean?

Are we both speaking English?

 

[annsni]

Honestly, I don't understand. How can two people who are reading the same scripture not come to the same understanding?

What does "it is not what enters a man that defileth a man" mean?

What does "Perceive ye not, that whatsoever goeth into the mouth passeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?" mean?

Are we both speaking English?

I'M totally on you with this. Jesus HIMSELF said that what goes into the mouth cannot defile so Jesus could not be defiled by drinking wine. If those of you who say that He could, then you're calling Jesus HIMSELF a liar!

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Honestly, I don't understand. How can two people who are reading the same scripture not come to the same understanding?

What does "it is not what enters a man that defileth a man" mean?

What does "Perceive ye not, that whatsoever goeth into the mouth passeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?" mean?

Are we both speaking English?

One of those two is reading with the natural mind, seeing wine of Bible times as being all alcoholic because all wine made today is made with alcohol.

The other is reading with the Spirit, realizing that Christ was perfect and could not have drank alcoholic wine without sinning, that any man who claims to be of Christ is sinning when drinking alcoholic wine or endorsing the drinking of wine by saying Christ made it so it must be ok.

 

[Helen]

Now that you have redefined sin, you might let God know.

 

[menageriekeeper]

One of those two is reading with the natural mind, seeing wine of Bible times as being all alcoholic because all wine made today is made with alcohol.

The other is reading with the Spirit, realizing that Christ was perfect and could not have drank alcoholic wine without sinning, that any man who claims to be of Christ is sinning when drinking alcoholic wine or endorsing the drinking of wine by saying Christ made it so it must be ok.

I REALLY hope you are not questioning my salvation.

So, does that mean then that you serve a God who is unable to preserve the full meaning of His words for a few thousand years? How then will He ever preserve your soul through eternity?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

God has preserved His Word. Man has twisted it, used it out of context, and led many down the path of sin by doing so.