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Question to consider

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glad4mercy

Active Member
John 3:18. Which did Jesus say?

A. Unbelievers do not believe because they are already condemned (even before they were born)

Or

B. They are already condemned because they do not believe

option B makes unbelief the CAUSE of ones condemnation. A makes unbelief the RESULT of ones condemnation.

Option B is what Jesus said in John 3:18.
 
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JonShaff

JonShaff

Fellow Servant
Site Supporter
Unbelief is a willful rejection of the Truth. So, in the biblical sense, we stand condemned BECAUSE of unbelief.
 
G

glad4mercy

Active Member
JonShaff said:
Unbelief is a willful rejection of the Truth. So, in the biblical sense, we stand condemned BECAUSE of unbelief.
Click to expand...

Yes, anyone who perishes does not perish because God willed it, but rather because they themselves willed it.

I do not believe in double predestination.
 
JonShaff

JonShaff

Fellow Servant
Site Supporter
Iconoclast said:
Now the true agenda surfaces....sorry...but you are opposing yourselves by denying the effects of the fall. make no mistake about it...you cannot ignore the garden and come out alright.
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So, citing biblical references, what are the effects of the fall?
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
glad4mercy said:
John 3:18. Which did Jesus say?

A. Unbelievers do not believe because they are already condemned (even before they were born)

Or

B. They are already condemned because they do not believe

option B makes unbelief the CAUSE of ones condemnation. A makes unbelief the RESULT of ones condemnation.

Option B is what Jesus said in John 3:18.
Click to expand...
all of us are born as sinners after Adam, as in Adam, and are under judgement.
 
JonShaff

JonShaff

Fellow Servant
Site Supporter
Yeshua1 said:
all of us are born as sinners after Adam, as in Adam, and are under judgement.
Click to expand...
Yep, got it. But what does Scripture say?

John 3:18
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Yes, i'm going with the simple Explanation of our Lord.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonShaff said:
Yep, got it. But what does Scripture say?

John 3:18
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Yes, i'm going with the simple Explanation of our Lord.
Click to expand...
Even if they never heard of Him, they stand condemned, correct?
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonShaff said:
So, citing biblical references, what are the effects of the fall?
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gen6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

eccl7:

29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

9:
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Jer13:
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Jer17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

rom1
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


rom8:
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1cor2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
G

glad4mercy

Active Member
Iconoclast said:
Now the true agenda surfaces....sorry...but you are opposing yourselves by denying the effects of the fall. make no mistake about it...you cannot ignore the garden and come out alright.
Click to expand...

If you think I am ignoring the Fall, you have not understood my posts.

The Fall only deals with human inability. It does not handcuff God

And don't you know that the whole " you're ignoring the Fall" is a strawman?

I believe in moral inability and depravity. I also believe God's grace is greater than our inability and deeper than our depravity.

So whatdoya say about that?
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
glad4mercy said:
If you think I am ignoring the Fall, you have not understood my posts.

The Fall only deals with human inability. It does not handcuff God

And don't you know that the whole " you're ignoring the Fall" is a strawman?

I believe in moral inability and depravity. I also believe God's grace is greater than our inability and deeper than our depravity.

So whatdoya say about that?
Click to expand...
The heart of man is deceitful and wicked, and as such, will not come to god to get saved by Christ!
 
G

glad4mercy

Active Member
Yeshua1 said:
The heart of man is deceitful and wicked, and as such, will not come to god to get saved by Christ!
Click to expand...

Such was your heart too. How did your heart change towards God? By a work of Grace that occurred before you believed. See, no one's denying the Fall.

On what basis does God damn sinners? Please provide scriptural citations for your answer. This question is a challenge to all Calvinists.
 
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Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
glad4mercy said:
Such was your heart too. How did your heart change towards God? By a work of Grace that occurred before you believed. See, no one's denying the Fall.

On what basis does God damn sinners? Please provide scriptural citations for your answer. This question is a challenge to all Calvinists.
Click to expand...
God does not damn sinners by causing them to go to hell directly, but he had predestinate their eternal state, as they were found to be in their sins and in Adam, not in Christ!
 
G

glad4mercy

Active Member
Yeshua1 said:
God does not damn sinners by causing them to go to hell directly, but he had predestinate their eternal state, as they were found to be in their sins and in Adam, not in Christ!
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Are you saying they were predestined to damnation according to the foreknowledge of God? So you hold to double predestination.

Well at least youre a consistent Calvinist, believing that God damns people before they do anything. That is a consistent Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9.

I have a question. What does "ultimacy" mean in the phrase equal ultimacy? I would say ultimacy usually means "certainty of an end or result". Does the word have a different meaning in the context of equal ultimacy?
 
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