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Oooops I am sorry I thought I addressed that...Originally posted by rc:
You havn't answered me yet...
What about God HATING the Wicked?
Lament over JerusalemWhen God weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.
God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”
Matt 23
God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.
Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.
Hosea 11:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.
</font>[/QUOTE]Oh yeah -- that's right I ALREADY posted these scriptures and the Calvinists "ignored all the Bible texts posted"!!Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"
Originally posted by rc:
All you've proved is that God weeps.
[/qute]
Is that "all"???
Are you just not "allowing yourself" to pay attention to the "Details". OR was that all you would allow yourself to read??
"ALL may compassions are stirred up within Me" -- care to comment on "DETAILS"????
(Oh how hard to get Calvinists to pay attention to scripture!!) They do NOT pay attenion to the DETALS of texts that don't please them. We point this out ad nauseum!
#2. DID you yourself not say that we will be MORE LIKE God in heaven not LESS??
Do you deny that now??
In Christ,
Bob
Originally posted by BobRyan:
1. You denied that Parents will SEE the torment of their lost children. Do you now deny -- denying that? (in the never ending shell game of antything-goes-for-calvinism)???
I denied it in the sense that you describe it in your scenario. If Christians are permitted to observe the torment of the lost their own children then I agree with Edwards and RC and not with you. I remain unconvinced by your arguments.
2. The Love that Christians have today WILL NOT END at the second coming but it is the ONE THING that GOES ON -- into eternity according to 1Cor 13 -- do you deny that now as well?
I have never denied that Love will end. But it will be expressed differently as in the example of marriage.
3. Edwards claimed the saints will see ALL the wicked being tormented not "everyone but those they care about" -- do you deny reading that "now"??? (in the never ending shell game of antything-goes-for-calvinism)???
I have read that. Edwards is a man - You are a man. I'll choose Edwards over you.
4. God ClAIMS HE weeps over the lost -- Do you deny reading that "NOW"???
Jesus did weep over Jerusalem. It's in the Calvinist Bible.
5. RC claimed that the saints will be MORE LIKE GOD in heaven NOT LESS (I claimed the same thing). Do you DENY THAT?? (in the never ending shell game of antything-goes-for-calvinism)???
Of course saints will be more like God in Heaven that we are on this earth. I have never denied that. What I deny is your god when you have him wringing his hands and weeping with parents of lost children as they are tormented in hell.
6. Your previous non-stop diatribe was against the EDWARDS idea that Rev 14 shows the WICKED being in the presence of God and VIEWED by the RIGHTEOUS as they are in torment. (For the RIGHTEOUS are always WITH CHRIST). Do you now deny your own diatribe??? (in the never ending shell game of antything-goes-for-calvinism)???
No I do not deny my doubts about Edwards' view or your view.
7. The CFS BEGINS with the point that Calvinism MUST HAVE the LUXURY of heartless cold disconcern for the lost in the end -- and then it shows REJOICING of the parent in the "all for ME ME ME" model of Calvinism. Do you now AGREE WITH THAT???
No I disagree with that totally. Arminianism is the "Me, Me, Me, Me Theory of interpretation" Not Calvinism.
8. YOU claimed that if Parents were to SEE the torment of their OWN children it would be a shock!! Do you now deny that??? (in the never ending shell game of antything-goes-for-calvinism)???
No, I do not deny that. From an emotional point of view like your scenario is crafted it would be an untenable position.
Is this where you get back to paying attention to the details?
I have never stopped paying attention to details. But I've just about stopped paying attention to you.
In Christ,
How can an Arminian ever be sure?![]()
Bob [/qb]
Originally posted by BobRyan:
1. You denied that Parents will SEE the torment of their lost children. Do you now deny -- denying that? (in the never ending shell game of antything-goes-for-calvinism)???
I describe them SEEING as Edwards says they SEE.Originally posted by Hardsheller
I denied it in the sense that you describe it in your scenario.
You argee that they WILL BE getting many chuckles over seeing their loved ones tormented INSTEAD of being SHOCKED as YOU said they would be before??Hardsheller said
If Christians are permitted to observe the torment of the lost their own children then I agree with Edwards and RC and not with you.
This was "seems" incredibly obvious. But with Calvinists one is always tasked with stating "the obvious".Bob said
2. The Love that Christians have today WILL NOT END at the second coming but it is the ONE THING that GOES ON -- into eternity according to 1Cor 13 -- do you deny that now as well?
Innexplicably you cling to that idea of TWO SAINTS in heaven STILL LOVING each other but not being married as a way to say that A parent STILL LOVING A CHILD will get their jollies watching that SAME child tormented in hell.Hardsheller -
I have never denied that Love will end. But it will be expressed differently as in the example of marriage.
Bob said -
3. Edwards claimed the saints will see ALL the wicked being tormented not "everyone but those they care about" -- do you deny reading that "now"??? (in the never ending shell game of antything-goes-for-calvinism)???
OK so now after ranting that the Bible does NOT support the idea of the saints SEEING their children suffer in hell - you will now recant and join Edwards in finding GREAT JOY over that as you LOVE those children in that truly "different kind of way" in the future!!Hardsheller -- I have read that. Edwards is a man - You are a man. I'll choose Edwards over you.
I gave quotes from BOTH OT and NT showing the sorrow of God as HE says "ALL MY compassions are turned within Me... OH HOW CAN I give you up?!!"Bob said --
4. God ClAIMS HE weeps over the lost -- Do you deny reading that "NOW"???
Will we be MORE LIKE Christ in His concern for the lost OR LESS like Christ -- in heaven?Hardsheller said
Jesus did weep over Jerusalem. It's in the Calvinist Bible.
Bob said --
5. RC claimed that the saints will be MORE LIKE GOD in heaven NOT LESS (I claimed the same thing). Do you DENY THAT?? (in the never ending shell game of antything-goes-for-calvinism)???
We really ARE making some headway here!! So when God SAYS He has great compassion for the lost and weeps over them -- THIS IS the "UNCHANGING GOD" that the saints will be MORE like in heaven -- correct??Hardsheller said --
Of course saints will be more like God in Heaven that we are on this earth. I have never denied that.
If I said anything about "wringing" I did not mean to (in fact I am sure I did not).Hardsheller said -
What I deny is your god when you have him wringing his hands and weeping
Ahh - back to "nonsensical" all-for-calvinism "anyway"!!Hardsheller said --...
will not weep along with parents of lost children as they are tormented in hell.
Bob said --
6. Your previous non-stop diatribe was against the EDWARDS idea that Rev 14 shows the WICKED being in the presence of God and VIEWED by the RIGHTEOUS as they are in torment. (For the RIGHTEOUS are always WITH CHRIST). Do you now deny your own diatribe??? (in the never ending shell game of antything-goes-for-calvinism)???
and that is joined with ...Hardsheller said
No I do not deny my doubts about Edwards' view or your view.
Hardsheller -- I have read that. Edwards is a man - You are a man. I'll choose Edwards over you.
Bob said --
7. The CFS BEGINS with the point that Calvinism MUST HAVE the LUXURY of heartless cold disconcern for the lost in the end -- and then it shows REJOICING of the parent in the "all for ME ME ME" model of Calvinism. Do you now AGREE WITH THAT???
Having agreed with EDwards that they DO See their children burning and having repudiated your OWN claim that IF they saw it they would be shocked - you now ALSO repudiate "if they saw it they would have joy as EDWARDS claims".Hardsheller
No I disagree with that totally.
Bob said --
8. YOU claimed that if Parents were to SEE the torment of their OWN children it would be a shock!! Do you now deny that??? (in the never ending shell game of antything-goes-for-calvinism)???
OK so NOW you insist that the parents WOULD WEEP just as God says HE weeps IF The parents were to SEE what Edwards and Rev 14:10 say they will see?????Hardsheller --
No, I do not deny that.
Is this a response to one of the texts I gave you -- or is this a continuation of your efforts to gloss over them??Originally posted by rc:
More like God in Heaven...
I HATE the evildoers.... We will HATE the evildoers. You can not explain this verse... I want what THIS means. Do you think God's emotions and charactor is as shallow as yours?
Where does it say "directly" that we will have sorrow in heaven? Or crying? Or anything else BUT gloryfing God in heaven ! You can't. All you do is misapply scriputre and interject it.
You SERIOUSLY need to take a hermeneutics class.
He is terrible that rc is! I bet Esau's laughing his socks off.Is this a response to one of the texts I gave you -- or is this a continuation of your efforts to gloss over them??
Why, because it is scripture?The whole "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" argument is a weak one.
Are you a Calvinist? Don't mean love tho does it?The word "hate" could also be described as "despised" or "detested".
To Hell with work I say!I "hate" going to work, but I still drive there.
I would say you have eaten them.I "hate" brussel sprouts, but if I put them in my mouth and chew them, I have accepted them.
Can you? I shall pray all the harder for you brother.I "hate" pink shirts, but I can still put one on.