Regeneration

[MB]

Hi Benjamin;

I apologize for the confusion, I had thought you responded negatively to my post that all men had the ability to choose which I gave in contrast to the dreadful doctrinal statement in the post that I replied to that tauntingly and full of pride said in his own assurance of having being predestined to the effect that why don’t Arminians go out and save some souls that Jesus couldn’t manage.

So yes, it was interesting to me, as I looked to see who replied to me and saw your statement of faith didn’t say, "my faith is in Him because God placed my faith", you said, “Because”.. “I”… “placed”… “my” “faith” which, frankly, I don’t know if you would stick to that or not, but I noted it because of you seemingly coming in contradiction to what I had just said about all men having the ability to choose in defense of the great commission that I felt was being stomped on! So understand the nature of the debate had gone sour in which you entered.

Now in retrospect, I will agree that God does the regenerating and put it that He does so in response to “our” faith. I was not implying we choose to be “spiritually re-born” but chose who to serve by “our” faith; so we might have had a misunderstanding; easy to do on a debate board. So anyway, since I’m temporarily involved here, might as well through in a proof text:


(Rom 10:9) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


The word "you" appears four times in this verse alone. I am always surprised that some do not see how much "you" there is in a book and have been taught that supposedly it says that we do nothing.

It is interesting how some miss that point isn't it. Salvation is conditional Praise God it is. Amen
MB

 

[Pastor Larry]

First my Bible doesn't say it that way.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Let's say they couldn't hear which in truth some Jews couldn't.

So your Bible does no say “ye cannot hear my word”? That makes no sense. You quote just what I said, and then say that your Bible doesn’t say it.

Even if some couldn't hear His word it still doesn't imply a disability for the rest of man or even the rest of the men at the time. This disability is the result of the logic of man. How is it you could apply a disability of some, to all? What makes one verse more powerful than all the rest that say men can hear.

The whole of Scripture msut be taken into account. And that is what you are not doing. The verses you cite tell us that all men know that God exists. He is clearly testified to in nature. But their sin causes them to refuse to believe, and the Bible describes that refusal as inability.

Even in there blindness they aren't kept from turning there hearts to the Lord by disability.

Then why did Jesus use a word of ability to say that they “cannot”? Are you thinking about how much your words contradict Jesus?

Their blindness was the result of there own rejection of Christ

This is exactly what Calvinism teaches.

It's true man doesn't seek God but the cause is lack of knowledge not hearing.

So you are saying that if people just knew more they would respond?

According to my Greens interlinear. It appears this verse you brought up just may be two questions. The words ("it is")were not in it originally. These two words make it seem as if He is telling them and shouldn't be in there without being in Italiacs. The second phrase starts off with the word "because" this doesn't make it a question but it certainly doesn't mean it isn't either.

Those two questions have answers. The “it is” is supplied in English. The Greek does not have it because the Greek is perfectly clear without it. This is a difference in the languages. The “it is” is exactly what the Greek means. Second, the word because is conjunction that gives a reason for the preceding statement. So appealing to the Greek won’t help you. In fact, it makes it even more clear

 

[johnp.]

Hello skypair.

They would NOT live forever unless they ate of the "tree of life" also!

Life for Adam and Eve was conditional. Death was the punishment for disobedience. Nothing else was required but, one law was to be kept.
The wages of sin is death not the not eating from the tree of life is death.
I read, "Do not touch that tree or you will die. I don't read, "Don't not touch that tree and you will die as well." There was one condition for life.
The tree of life was hidden after the fall physically representing the fact that God has determined that man must not find and take eternal life by there own efforts.
God hid the way to life, "And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."" Gen 3:22. Just as you have been told.
He hid the way but you say you know the way? If you ever get close to that tree you're going to get hurt, there is one there ready to prevent you and he has a sword to stop you with. No one takes life it is a gift of God.

No sir! Not even close.

On the contrary.

OK, I can agree that the Spirit/God made John do something that he would not have in his own capacity.

If we are nothing but marrionettes, so be it. That is not what I find in scriptures though. There you go, a baby marrionette.
And regeneration is faith given -- that's true, too. Then you agree, regeneration comes before faith?

But he can choose God by belief just as readily as he chooses an orange over an apple to eat.

PS 94:11 The LORD knows the thoughts of man; he knows that they are futile.
PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Man cannot even chose the socks he wears how do you think you can choose to overcome your fallen nature? You think you beat it? It has you round the throat.

What happens? It is confirmed! Faith is the evidence of what we believe, John.

Are you saying faith is sort of really really believing?

Calvinism has invented all kinds of 'devices' to get around it -- prevenient grace, personal faith, et. -- but the truth is that belief is one thing and faith another.

Believing faith and belief are the same words doesn't take any getting round?

Christ and Messiah mean the same thing too -- or do they?

Answer the point please.

john.

 

[whatever]

8. But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching

Information needed - what information is that? "the word of faith" Plane and simple the gospel.


9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Notice that for those who are included in verse 8 are told they have a choice. "that if you ......" That is correct they will be saved after they have faith in the word of faith. Any enlightenment men receive is from hearing the "word of faith and after they hear it they can reject it or accept it "if you ........"

10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Not rocket science just simple easy to understand Scripture.

First, is the condescension really necessary?

Second, I do not disagree with what you have written here. I am curious why you think I would.

 

[johnp.]

Hello GordonSlocum.

Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13.

So if you confess with your mouth it is because God was about His good purpose. Easy peasy.

And if you believe in your heart it is because God has replaced the stone with life. When the seed takes root it takes root in good soil. Jesus came to call sinners not the righteous.

It is still true for me, I confess His Name and I believe God raised Him from the dead and I know I am saved because I believe God raised Jesus from the dead and I confess His Name. Comfort and joy for the Children of God. Never will He forsake any of the elect.

john.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Well, the thing is as I stated in a different post entitled The Vague God - is God Ambigious, It is logically impossible for someone to generate faith. That is, one cannot convince themselves that Jesus was the Son of God, or that there is an inivisble creature running around in the attic, it is just not possible.

If Faith is brought by the Holy Spirit, then Calvinism is true. If Faith is a result of human free-will, then Calvinism is false.

Both or your answers are wrong. Just believe the Scripture. Faith comes by hearing the Gospel. Man hears the truth about what God did and who he is as a man and now it is up to man to reject or accept. That simple

 

[OldRegular]

Regeneration Then the Gift of Faith

Obviously you were "snowed" by this lengthy obfuscation of the truth. :laugh:

... Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God. During his earthly ministry Jesus Christ expressed this truth by the following simple statements:[/quote] Calvinists always assing things they don't understand to "the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God" (or words to that effect.)

Amen. But what untruth are you going to hang on this obvious truth -- that's the issue.

Beginning with God "foreknowing" who would believe, old regular. That is where we are in this discussion. Some, knowing that faith is given only by God -- and wanting to prove that God "does it all" -- say that belief = faith. NO. Belief is what man is called upon to do in order to receive faith.


Regeneration/rebirth is AFTER belief. It is God "translating us into the kingdom of His dear Son" once we believe (Col 1:13). We are "born again" into the kingdom like your reference to Jo 3 tell us, right?

And what we would really like to know is when God does this. I see from your list below that even your author does not speculate on that not knowing himself where to place it. So I suggest we place it AFTER we believe and are justified before God.


ABSOLUTELY and VERIFIABLY NOT!

skypair[/QUOTE]

First “skypair” you need to watch your language! Perhaps if you look long enough you can find your faux pas.

Second you say:

ABSOLUTELY and VERIFIABLY NOT!

but you verify nothing you say. Present some Scripture to refute my post rather than blather.

I see that you do not believe the words of the Apostle Paul when he states in Ephesians 2:1-8 that regeneration is solely the work of the Holy Spirit. I doubt that you will accept the words of Jesus Christ in the following passage:

John 3:5-8, KJV)
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

In this passage Jesus Christ is speaking to Nicodemus about Spiritual rebirth or regeneration. Nothing is said about any required action on the part of Nicodemus, for example faith. Also note that Jesus Christ in verse 8 states that just as we do not understand the wind so we do not understand the act of regeneration but He does tell us that it is being born of the Spirit with absolutely no action required on the part of the recipient, just as we have nothing to do with the wind.

Now I am certain that you are like those Jews about which God speaks to Isaiah [Isaiah 6:9], about which Jesus Christ speaks to the Jews in Matthew 13:14 and about which Paul speaks to the Jews in Acts 28:27.

Isaiah 6:9, KJV)
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Matthew 13:14, KJV
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Acts 28:27, KJV
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Hello GordonSlocum.

Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13.

So if you confess with your mouth it is because God was about His good purpose. Easy peasy.

And if you believe in your heart it is because God has replaced the stone with life. When the seed takes root it takes root in good soil. Jesus came to call sinners not the righteous.

It is still true for me, I confess His Name and I believe God raised Him from the dead and I know I am saved because I believe God raised Jesus from the dead and I confess His Name. Comfort and joy for the Children of God. Never will He forsake any of the elect.

john.

Phillipians 2:13 is speaking to believers, not to conversion to Christ.

 

[GordonSlocum]

First, is the condescension really necessary?

Second, I do not disagree with what you have written here. I am curious why you think I would.

Here is what you said,

Originally Posted by whatever
Probably not to your satisfaction, so I am not sure that I even want to try. I just want to point out that you are asking the question wrong. Regeneration and faith are both part of salvation. The question that you want answered is, does regeneration precede faith?

My answer - chronologically they are simultaneous, but logcally regeneration (aka "the new birth") must precede faith and repentance. No one can choose to be born again any more than anyone can choose to be born the first time.

You say regeneration or new birth must precede faith and repentance.

You may have meant to say faith and repentance precede regeneration.

My position is that faith and repentance are before or precede regeneration / salvation.

Gordon

 

[OldRegular]

Regeneration, of Man or By God

Can someone out there who believes that man is the author of his own salvation please explain away the following Scripture for me?

Hebrews 12:1,2, KJV
1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus is the author of our faith and the finisher of our faith!

Romans 8:29,30, KJV
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What part did man play in any of the above events?

1 Timothy 2:5, KJV
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Does Jesus Christ mediate for man or does man mediate for himself through what some call ‘faith’ that originates within himself.?
.

 

[whatever]

You say regeneration or new birth must precede faith and repentance.

You may have meant to say faith and repentance precede regeneration.

My position is that faith and repentance are before or precede regeneration / salvation.

Gordon

I must really be dense, but I don't see where you said anything about regeneration in that post on Romans 10:8-10. Can you point it out for me? Thanks.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Not sure where this is going.

Here is what I believe.

Man is lost or dead in sis and trespasses

Man Hears the Gospel

Man know form hearing the Gospel that he is a sinner and Jesus is the Savior

Man can make a decision to believe the information or reject it.

Man must repent for faith is incomplete without repentance.

Man when he believes and repents is then saved or regenerated, sealed, adopted, positionally sanctified, positionally glorified etc.

 

[whatever]

Not sure where this is going.

. . .

Man when he believes and repents is then saved or regenerated, sealed, adopted, positionally sanctified, positionally glorified etc.

Here is where this is going. I will repeat what I said before. When Calvinists say that regeneration precedes faith we are using a different definition of regeneration than you are. We do not equate "regenerated" with "saved" as you do. Regeneration, in my view, is a part of salvation, not the whole.

[FONT=Book Antiqua, Verdana]In the Reformed camp[/FONT][FONT=Book Antiqua, Verdana], the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30) [/FONT]
[FONT=Book Antiqua, Verdana]In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election,
3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.[/FONT]​

​

Different people would state the order differently, of course, but for the sake of this discussion let's assume that I follow the Reformed order given above. The fact that believers are presented with the gospel and choose to believe and that unbelievers are presented with the gospel and choose to not believe says nothing about whether believers are regenerated before or after they begin to believe.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Here is where this is going. I will repeat what I said before. When Calvinists say that regeneration precedes faith we are using a different definition of regeneration than you are. We do not equate "regenerated" with "saved" as you do. Regeneration, in my view, is a part of salvation, not the whole.

[/INDENT]Different people would state the order differently, of course, but for the sake of this discussion let's assume that I follow the Reformed order given above. The fact that believers are presented with the gospel and choose to believe and that unbelievers are presented with the gospel and choose to not believe says nothing about whether believers are regenerated before or after they begin to believe.

Is this Reform outline an official outline or is it as you understand it?

 

[skypair]

Oldregular (that's an oxymoron. I'm old but I ain't regular! :laugh

You should join Pastor Larry and me on "What is Calvinism." Many of your objections would be answered by looking in at my most recent post.

... Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God.

Absolutely! He designed it -- He made the way. I don't see how anyone would disagree with that.

I see that you do not believe the words of the Apostle Paul when he states in Ephesians 2:1-8 that regeneration is solely the work of the Holy Spirit.

I don't see that Paul says we are regenerated before we are saved - no.

I doubt that you will accept the words of Jesus Christ in the following passage:

John 3:5-8, KJV)
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Let's get one thing straight -- disagreeing with you is NOT disagreeing with scripture. You've got a long way to go in proving that Calvin, whom you follow, knew what he was talking about.

Regarding the passage -- you didn't read far enough regarding what is required of us. John 3:15 - "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." Jesus told Nicodemus about the destination, then He told him how.

Now I am certain that you are like those Jews about which God speaks to Isaiah [Isaiah 6:9], about which Jesus Christ speaks to the Jews in Matthew 13:14 and about which Paul speaks to the Jews in Acts 28:27.

Actually, it is me that has a premonition about you -- look up 1Cor 2:14.

skypair

 

[MB]

Hi Pastor Larry;

So your Bible does no say “ye cannot hear my word”? That makes no sense. You quote just what I said, and then say that your Bible doesn’t say it.

That's exactly what I said but what I quoted doesn't say what yours does it doesn't say "it is because" it says "because ye cannot hear my word." That word because makes it a question not a statement.
The words "It is" aren't in the originals. They should have been in Italics when they were added.

The whole of Scripture msut be taken into account. And that is what you are not doing. The verses you cite tell us that all men know that God exists. He is clearly testified to in nature. But their sin causes them to refuse to believe, and the Bible describes that refusal as inability.

Then why did Jesus use a word of ability to say that they “cannot”? Are you thinking about how much your words contradict Jesus?

This is exactly what Calvinism teaches.

I am taking the whole of scripture in to account. You're the one with one verse and claiming this is the way it is because of what your Bible says. One verse is not the whole of scripture

So you are saying that if people just knew more they would respond?

That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we must be convicted by the Holy Spirit and convinced of Jesus Christ. This is the result of the Holy Spirit's doings. Man is just willing to listen at first. After being convicted and convinced man must willingly submit to the righteousness of God in order to have the righteousness of Christ.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

We aren't saved by our faith it isn't righteous enough. Our's is dirty rags. Our faith only shows a willingness. An acceptance of the seed. Many hold the truth of Salvation and understand it and still they refuse to submit to God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Convicted and convinced of Christ are both acts that cannot be counted as works for Salvation. They are not according to any Law. We aren't saved by what we do this is true but we aren't saved against our wills either.
We aren't saved by our faith but it is our faith that we must have in order to stand in Grace that we might be saved by the righteousness of Christ.
It is by Grace that we hear the word . It is by Grace we are convinced. It is by Grace we are convicted of our sins. It is by Grace we are drawn. It is by Grace we are saved or regenerated. Changing the definition of the word Regeneration doesn't change it's true meaning, nor is it the beginnin point of Salvation.

Those two questions have answers. The “it is” is supplied in English. The Greek does not have it because the Greek is perfectly clear without it. This is a difference in the languages. The “it is” is exactly what the Greek means. Second, the word because is conjunction that gives a reason for the preceding statement. So appealing to the Greek won’t help you. In fact, it makes it even more clear

Actually this is only your opinion and as I said I don't base truth on one verse. Romans 10:18 says we can hear, and have heard. Of course you would disagree with that but, are we to throw out the rest of the Bible based on what one verse says? Arguing over the definition of Greek words seems senseless any way when better experts than you or I translated the KJV to begin with. I admit there are other good translations and they may not all say it the same way but, the end result is the same. There is nothing in scripture that supports a disability that would require an act by God such as regeneration of the spirit to enable men who aren't disabled to begin with.
Men may not come to the Light which is why Christ told us to preach it to them any way. We are to shine the light on them while they are hiding in the darkness.
Salvation is all a work of God,though there is nothing to suggest that God forces man to be saved or to have his heart changed.
MB

 

[OldRegular]

Regeneration, the Initial Event in Salvation

Oldregular (that's an oxymoron. I'm old but I ain't regular! )

You should join Pastor Larry and me on "What is Calvinism." Many of your objections would be answered by looking in at my most recent post.

Originally Posted by OldRegular
... Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God.

Response by skypair
Absolutely! He designed it -- He made the way. I don't see how anyone would disagree with that.

Your concept of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation is sort of like 'slopping the hogs', you throw it in the trough and they get it if it looks good. [See Matthew 7:6]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
I see that you do not believe the words of the Apostle Paul when he states in Ephesians 2:1-8 that regeneration is solely the work of the Holy Spirit.

Response by skypair
I don't see that Paul says we are regenerated before we are saved - no.

Read and reread and pray until you can understand. Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:1 that we were spiritually dead. A dead man can do nothing, whether Spiritually dead or physically dead, except perhaps stink. Paul tells us in the following passage that while we were Spiritually dead God made us Spiritually alive; that is regeneration. I use the NKJV in case you don't understand 'quicken'.

Ephesians 2:4,5 NKJV
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Originally Posted by OldRegular
I doubt that you will accept the words of Jesus Christ in the following passage:

John 3:5-8, KJV)
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I was right, you don't believe it.

Response by skypair
Let's get one thing straight -- disagreeing with you is NOT disagreeing with scripture. You've got a long way to go in proving that Calvin, whom you follow, knew what he was talking about.

I don't follow Calvin, I simply believe what Scripture states. Try it you may like it!

Response by skypair
Regarding the passage -- you didn't read far enough regarding what is required of us. John 3:15 - "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." Jesus told Nicodemus about the destination, then He told him how.

The 'whosoever' is one who has experienced regeneration.

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Now I am certain that you are like those Jews about which God speaks to Isaiah [Isaiah 6:9], about which Jesus Christ speaks to the Jews in Matthew 13:14 and about which Paul speaks to the Jews in Acts 28:27.

Response by skypair
Actually, it is me that has a premonition about you -- look up 1Cor 2:14.

:godisgood:

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

That's exactly what I said but what I quoted doesn't say what yours does it doesn't say "it is because" it says "because ye cannot hear my word." That word because makes it a question not a statement.
The words "It is" aren't in the originals. They should have been in Italics when they were added.

“It is” is there (in italics BTW) because it is necessary in English to make the sentence. It is not a question. It is a statement, as the context makes clear.

I am taking the whole of scripture in to account. You're the one with one verse and claiming this is the way it is because of what your Bible says. One verse is not the whole of scripture

The testimony of Scripture across the board is to the total depravity and inability of man to come to God.

We aren't saved by our faith it isn't righteous enough.

Now you have departed from orthodoxy.

We aren't saved by what we do this is true but we aren't saved against our wills either.

Glad you agree with Calvinists on this.

Actually this is only your opinion and as I said I don't base truth on one verse. Romans 10:18 says we can hear, and have heard. Of course you would disagree with that but, are we to throw out the rest of the Bible based on what one verse says?

No, we are not. And that is my point. You cannot throw out the teaching of the whole Bible because you disagree with it.

Arguing over the definition of Greek words seems senseless any way when better experts than you or I translated the KJV to begin with.

Whose arguing over the definition of Greek words? I am not. I am pointing out something about the Greek that God inspired.

There is nothing in scripture that supports a disability that would require an act by God such as regeneration of the spirit to enable men who aren't disabled to begin with.

John 8, Eph 1, Rom 8, Eph 4 are just a few passages that immediately jump to mind that directly contradict your position.

Men may not come to the Light which is why Christ told us to preach it to them any way. We are to shine the light on them while they are hiding in the darkness.
Salvation is all a work of God,though there is nothing to suggest that God forces man to be saved or to have his heart changed.

Glad you agree with us Calvinists on this at least.

 

[MB]

“It is” is there (in italics BTW) because it is necessary in English to make the sentence. It is not a question. It is a statement, as the context makes clear.

Oh I see you quoted it from memory and forgot the italics.

“
The testimony of Scripture across the board is to the total depravity and inability of man to come to God.

Where? Scripture please

“
Now you have departed from orthodoxy.

No I haven't what I believe is scriptural and that is about as orthodox as it gets

Glad you agree with Calvinists on this.

I never said that Calvinism is completely wrong. Although my agreement is with scripture. I'm sure there is a lot Calvinist agree with in scripture, but that doesn't make scripture, Calvinism.

No, we are not. And that is my point. You cannot throw out the teaching of the whole Bible because you disagree with it.

Disagreeing with the logic of that guy Turetin (or how ever you spell it ) is not disagreeing with scripture. It's a fact is it not? that John 8:43 says nothing about being totally depraved? It says nothing about being disabled, it says nothing about a need to be enabled when we're never disabled to begin with.
Being convinced of the truth of Christ as the Son of God is the beginning point of Salvation. This is the seed of the word implanted in our hearts. This is not Salvation but is the start of the process. It is God's word that changes the heart of man through the Holy Spirit.

Whose arguing over the definition of Greek words? I am not. I am pointing out something about the Greek that God inspired.

It doesn't seem you're going to change my mind nor will I change yours. Let's just agree that we disagree.

John 8, Eph 1, Rom 8, Eph 4 are just a few passages that immediately jump to mind that directly contradict your position.

I still disagree with you on this. I've studied those passages and not one of them support a total depravity. I admit that man is a sinner and is hell bound with out the intervention of the Holy Spirit and God's word. Still there is no such disability as Calvinism claims. Scripture doesn't even suggest a disability though man doesn't respond with out intervention. Why should man go looking for a God he is convinced of himself doesn't exist?
There is a natural man and he is spiritually dead but there is no reason to assume spiritual death is any thing like the physical when spiritual birth and the physical isn't the same. Why should spiritual death be like the physical. Man may not look for God but he certainly isn't kept from responding to the Spirit and the word. Else why would the Spirit convict him?

Glad you agree with us Calvinists on this at least.

Something we might agree on. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is my redeemer, and I Love Him more than Life.
MB

 

[Pastor Larry]

Oh I see you quoted it from memory and forgot the italics.

No, I cut and paste. Not all versions do the italics. The NIV omits It is. Just compare the versions.

Where? Scripture please

rom 8, John 8; eph 2, 4 etc. All through it. Surely if have studied reformed theology enough to have such a dogmatic opinion, you have seen hte passages that Calvinists use to support their belief.

No I haven't what I believe is scriptural and that is about as orthodox as it gets

When you say we are not saved by our faith, you have departed from orthodoxy and embraced heresy. Period. God saves those who believe on him, no matter whether you are arminian or Calvinist (or like to pretend there is some mysterious ground in between).

that John 8:43 says nothing about being totally depraved? It says nothing about being disabled, it says nothing about a need to be enabled when we're never disabled to begin with.

It says "you cannot hear my word." He is not talking about physical hearing, but about understand, and he says "You cannot" using a word of ability. It is "You are not able."

I've studied those passages and not one of them support a total depravity.

then I would suggest you need to study them more.

Scripture doesn't even suggest a disability though man doesn't respond with out intervention.

It says "You cannot please God." How is that not a disability? Perhaps we are using different dictionaries.

Why should man go looking for a God he is convinced of himself doesn't exist?

All men know God exist. When God draws someone, they come.