Regeneration

[johnp.]

The work of God is simply the fact that man cannot come to Christ left up to themselves...that's all the text is saying. I don't have a clue why you are using that as your proof text that faith is a work.

Because Jesus said it is. Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
You one can interpret the verse as: Jesus was asked what God requires from us for us to enjoy eternal life (verse 28). Jesus replied that the work that is required from God so that we can have eternal life is to trust in Christ.
Or,
Jesus was asked what God required from us for us to enjoy eternal life. Jesus corrects them in their mistaken belief that man can do anything and His answer to them is that belief is a work God works in us.
Either way it is a work. I believe it is the work of God not my work. Belief must be a work because it's a doing where some don't. Belief must be held as a requirement and that is works. The emphasis on the the 'requirement'. Obedience.

I still don't see where you are getting faith as a work.

Any clearer webdog? The work of God is simply the fact that man cannot come to Christ left up to themselves... Exactly.

john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello skypair.

Why do you NEVER cite the verse before it??? The context? Cause you'd then have to admit that the passage talks about works the MAN can do!

Never say never. The work man can do for eternal salvation is zero.

RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Only lies annoy me. Why don't YOU believe Rom 4:5?

I wouldn't be much of a Calvinist if I did not believe Rom 4:5 would I? Rom 4:5 is talking about faith when you were talking about belief. Why do you do that when you believe belief is not faith? Believe means belief doesn't it, you failed to answer this question last time I asked?

john.

 

[johnp.]

The violation of common sense does not belong to me GordonSlocum and neither did I say the verse teaches we must work for our salvation. That is just in your head not mine. I said belief is a work.

The quick change routine doesn't work on me. To change the meaning of 'word' in this verse to 'plan', is to me, a bit desperate. Why not change it to bannana? Or anything? The plan of God, if it is for us to believe, never fails. Why isn't everyone saved? You're not trying to kid me that God's plan may not come to fruition are you?

The structure of the language in no way makes faith a work.

JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." Of course.

To me it is another classical error that is made in forcing meaning onto a word that is not there.

No need to force a word when you can supplant it with another is there?

...but Jesus re-directs their thing and points them to "faith" or "believing". God's plan, method, work, way etc.

God requires us to trust in Jesus not a plan, not God's method nor God's etc. God requires us to trust in Jesus and that is a work as Jesus said it is.

Salvation is God's work.

It is not God's work initially if one must believe before God saves. The seed takes root in good soil Gordon Slocum, where did you get a good heart from, tell us all we need to know.
Matt 12:35 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. Jesus came to call sinners not the righteous.

When we believe we have done the work of God, not our work.

You talk in riddles. You say you have done what God requires yet you deny works?

You want to be saved do the work of God...

The work of God must be done therefore it is a work.

God says to everyone, my work for you is that you trust, believe, have faith.

God says to those He elected we are saved by grace not by works. Faith is a gift of God to those He loves. Eph 2:8-9. Does He make us work for a gift, sounds more like wages to me.

john.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Your sarcasm is nauseating, Larry.

I havne't been sarcastic.

I have give you Gal 3:22 and Rom 3:22. "...that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" I don't see how you get around these verses, Larry.

I don't need to get around them. You see, this makes my point. In both of those verse, the same word is used.

Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith (pistis) in Jesus Christ for all those who believe (pisteuo; verb form).

Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith (pistis; noun form) in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe (pisteuo; verb form).

So the distinction is not between faith and belief, as if they are different. The distinction is grammatical, between noun and verb. How do you not know this? You are building your system on a distinction that doesn't exist. And when it is pointed out to you numerous times, you refuse to study it and see your error.

The truth is that you can't find anywhere in Scripture where this distinction between faith and belief is found. The word "belief" is only found 1 time in the KJV, NIV, and NASB (2 Thes 2:13 ... which you want to not discuss); the word belief is not found at all in the NASB. The words "pistis" is usually translated as "faith" being the noun form of the verb "to believe."

Psa 109:31??

Psalms109:31 is a poster here who has said that election comes after belief. When asked to support that from Scripture, he has failed.

I'm sure your fans will be "snowed" by scripture citation without actually quoting the words. Not me.

Perhaps you are snowed by not paying attention the conversation.

So tell us, Larry -- how does this prove anything that you accuse me of? Are you "poor?" Am I condemning your soul? See, at this point I'm having trouble with your relevance to the discussion.

I think I will just ignore this, though it is very tempting.

 

[skypair]

Larry,

Sorry I misunderstood your post -- Psa 109:31 and all.

I don't need to get around them. You see, this makes my point. In both of those verse, the same word is used.

I'm afraid our debate on belief vs. faith is just like our debate on foreknow vs. predestined. Apparently the translators saw a distinction that you won't acknowledge. I can't explain that except by ideas that were formed outside of the Bible as it has been handed down to us, can you? I've seen Rick Warren do similarly, haven't you?

I mean, even believe has a noun form that could have been used in Gal 3:22 and Rom 3:22 -- belief. Yet you dismiss the word the translators use -- "faith" -- where the noun "belief" would be very appropriate according to you.

Why not just say "Even the righteousness of God which is by belief of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:...?" Or why not this "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that are elect:...?" The "elect" believe, right? That's really where the verse is going anyway, right? :laugh:

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

I'm afraid our debate on belief vs. faith is just like our debate on foreknow vs. predestined. Apparently the translators saw a distinction that you won't acknowledge. I can't explain that except by ideas that were formed outside of the Bible as it has been handed down to us, can you? I've seen Rick Warren do similarly, haven't you?

I don't pay attention to anything Rick Warren does so I don't know. I certainly would not base my theology off of what he says.

But to form theology by ideas outside the Bible is inherently flawed. God gave us the Bible to tell us what to believe about him and life.

I don't know of any translator that sees this distinction. You can't even show the distinction, so how do we know it is there? The distinction is only in your mind. It isn't in the mind of the apostles, apparently, since they used the same word. And not in the mind of translators who, with apparently only one exception, translated "pistis" as faith, not belief.

I mean, even believe has a noun form that could have been used in Gal 3:22 and Rom 3:22 -- belief.

The noun form of "believe" is "faith." You can use belief, but the difference is not theological, but linguistic. In your KJV you will see belief one time (2 Thess 2:13). All the other 243 occurrences of the word translated "belief" in 2 Thess 2:13 is translated as faith. Now, where is the distinction?

On the other hand, never that I can find at quick glance is the verb form (pisteuo) translated has anything other than "believe." Again I am working quickly here, but I don't see any.

So this distinction is not a biblical one, so far as we can tell from the Bible. The only way to get this distinction is, as you admit, to go outside the Bible. And I submit that is the major problem. Your whole theology is built largely on ideas from "outside the Bible," to which you then go to the Bible to try to support.

Yet you dismiss the word the translators use -- "faith" -- where the noun "belief" would be very appropriate according to you.

I don't dismiss the word faith. That is the word most often used for the noun form pistis.

Why not just say "Even the righteousness of God which is by belief of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:...?"

You could say that with no problem. It just isn't how it has been traditionally translated. (BTW, the "of" should be "in." Modern translations have corrected this.)

Or why not this "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that are elect:...?" The "elect" believe, right? That's really where the verse is going anyway, right?

Because the word is pisteuo, which means believe, not eklektos, which means elect. We translate the words the Spirit inspired.

 

[skypair]

I don't know of any translator that sees this distinction.

Apparently they ALL do as the ALL use either faith or belief in the same places depending, I suppose, on that distinction.

You can't even show the distinction, so how do we know it is there?

I've been maintaining the distinction all along. Have you paid attention? Belief -- trust without evidence. faith -- trust with evidence (Heb 11:1). Ed Young goes so far as to quote Heb 11:1 as "faith is the evidence of things believed!" And see, from blueletterbible.com concordance, I'm getting 4100/believe = "to think something to be true" whereas 4120/faith = "to have confidence something is true." Plus they are derivatives of the same word without being the same word, Larry.

The distinction is only in your mind. It isn't in the mind of the apostles, apparently, since they used the same word. And not in the mind of translators who, with apparently only one exception, translated "pistis" as faith, not belief.

This really avoids the main issue, that revolves around it, of where is regeneration (in your mind) relative to the "effectual call?" IOW, what precipitates regeneration and faith which you say are simultaneous and before salvation?

skypair

 

[convicted1]

I have read a few posts here and there in regards to this thread and I have one question? Why? Everyone in here knows, or should know, where they stand with God. If you are saved, aren't you splitting hairs? Now if you were in here debating whether Jesus is the Son of God, then I would understand all the debate. But in the end, everyone needs to just agree to disagree. I do believe that when God works with you, it's up to you to ask Him for forgiveness. Then when God saves you, your saved! This is where I think the regeneartion takes place. God saves!! Not man!! May God Bless!! John 3:16 :1_grouphug:

 

[convicted1]

Let me put it to you another way....when God saves you, the 'Old Man' is gone and you are now a 'New Man". If you are a 'New Man' after God saves you, how could the regeneration be before this experience?? You can't be the new and old man at the same time. May God Bless!! John 3:16:1_grouphug:

 

[psalms109:31]

Truth

I want one man to show me in scripture thier name written in the lambs book of life before the foundation of the world.

None of you can show proff of this.

It is Jesus that is chosen before the foundation of the world and those who remain in Him.

Your hope was never election and never will be, your only hope is in Jesus.

Until you just put your hope in Jesus and not your election you are no better than the Jews who still claim they are the elect of God and not trusted in Jesus.

Election is a false hope, where Jesus is your only hope.

Those who have entered another way other than Jesus, there is no way the truth can be made known to you.

Until you enter salvation through Jesus and not election, you will never understand the truth.

Until calvininst lift up Jesus over election, I will never believe a word they say.

Peter did warn us there will people that will missunderstand Paul's teaching into thier own destruction like they do with other scripture.

They want to take you down with them.

Continue to trust in Jesus do not lean on your own understand and I will make a promise with you because of the word of God, that you will not be dissappointed.

 

[johnp.]

It is Jesus that is chosen before the foundation of the world and those who remain in Him.

Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

He chose us in Him. It is by gace that I have been saved not by works so that I cannot boast like workers do Psalms.

john.

 

[skypair]

Let me put it to you another way....when God saves you, the 'Old Man' is gone and you are now a 'New Man". If you are a 'New Man' after God saves you, how could the regeneration be before this experience?? You can't be the new and old man at the same time. May God Bless!! John 3:16:1_grouphug:

Agreed! Thanks for "chiming in!"

I believe the issue is whether some here are trying to be sanctified but are not justified. That might not be present company but lurkers -- who knows. In general, anyone who follows Calvin.

I mean, let's face facts - a famous Calvinist (J. Montgomery Boice) says that the only way to know you are saved is by holy living. Now that does NOT fit the "mold" of someone who has believed and received Christ on a date certain in his/her life (which profession many Calvinist disclaim saying, "You mean that was the day you saved yourself, right?").

So, being above such presumptive acts, they assume they are "elect" and basically climb into the sheepfold another way.

skypair

 

[Brandon C. Jones]

some statements never cease to amaze me here

 

[skypair]

He chose us in Him.

That's the sum of it, john. Forget the rest. God chose anyone and everyone whom He foresaw would be "in Christ." How did you get "in Christ?" By believing and receiving, 1Cor 15:1-3.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Convicted, Larry, John

Here's a "quick and dirty:"

You gotta be JUSTIFIED before you can be regenerated. God is NOT going to take the old "totally depraved" man and make him inexplicably new. That's basically saying the elect are saved without hearing! Does that make sense to anyone? :saint:

skypair

 

[psalms109:31]

Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

He chose us in Him. It is by gace that I have been saved not by works so that I cannot boast like workers do Psalms.

john.

You are exactly right He has choose us in Him. Our dependance is in Jesus. Those who endure to the end shall be saved. If we do not remain in Jesus we are good for nothing but the fire.

You keep forgetting through faith.

You cannot enter the grace of God without faith.

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith

Anything outside of Jesus has been predestined to death.

Do not lean on your own understanding or other mens understanding but trust in Jesus and you will not be disappointed.

 

[johnp.]

God chose anyone and everyone whom He foresaw would be "in Christ."

That is simply non-sense skypair. ...The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20. He did not give Himself for everybody He loved me, it's personal, because some He chose to send to Hell. If election means one get elected because one elects himself to be elected you make a mockery of scripture and English and your republic. I'm sure Bush wasn't elected because he elected himself.

Answer 1 Sam 3:14 please. Does this not prove limited atonement and why not?

How did you get "in Christ?" By believing and receiving, 1Cor 15:1-3.

I did not.

You gotta be JUSTIFIED before you can be regenerated.

Justified by who and how please?

john.

 

[johnp.]

If we do not remain in Jesus we are good for nothing but the fire.

We are kept in Christ Psalms. JUDE 1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ: 2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

It says: To those who have been called - which isn't everyone otherwise he would have said - To everyone. To those who are loved - love never fails and keeps no record of wrongs. To those that are kept.
Your life of fear doesn't work on me. I have found a more perfect way. 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

We are kept in Christ Psalms. JUDE 1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ: 2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

It says: To those who have been called - which isn't everyone otherwise he would have said - To everyone. To those who are loved - love never fails and keeps no record of wrongs. To those that are kept.
Your life of fear doesn't work on me. I have found a more perfect way. 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

john.

Those who endure to the end are kept by Jesus, and no one can take them out of His hands.

We can never be taken out of the arms of Jesus, but we can walk away just like the young rich ruler.

There going proves they were never of us.

Jesus not election remains my only hope.