Rick Warren & "Resisters", Those Believers Who Refuse To Change

[npetreley]

This one statement is what the Southern Baptist Convention Conservative Resurgence is all about. The Conservative resurgence is all about getting back to the Bible and spending more time in His word---which is what reformation is all about!!!

Now--you are "clickin'" on the same level as I am, JBot!!!

Bro. David

I'll take this one step further.

Some years ago I heard someone say they stopped reading study Bibles because they were distracted by the comments and weren't sure they could trust the comments as being accurate. I took that to heart for a while, and stopped using the Scofield Bible or the NIV Study Bible and bought a Bible without any comments at all. After about a year, I went out and bought a Ryrie Bible and looked at the comments in all three (Scofield, NIV Study, Ryrie). Suddenly I saw a lot of errors and inappropriate commentary in these Bibles.

I wouldn't go so far as to say nobody should ever use Bibles with commentary or study Bibles. Some comments are really helpful. But I do think people should take time to read a Bible without comments. It really makes a difference, IMO.

 

[drfuss]

rpetreley writes:
"I wouldn't go so far as to say nobody should ever use Bibles with commentary or study Bibles. Some comments are really helpful. But I do think people should take time to read a Bible without comments. It really makes a difference, IMO"

I agree. Most commentaries, study quides, or even classes at church have an agenda. They can be helpful, but beware. I mostly study the Bible using three translations for each verse and go straight through the Bible.

 

[El_Guero]

I am still not certain about Rick Warren.

I know that many people love him and many people dislike him intensly. While I read many of his comments and think, "Just what is he really trying to say?", I realize that he has been formed by SoCal.

When I read some of the comments against him I think, "Sounds a little out of context."

But, what concerns me the most is his persistent usage of topical Bible study. I do not know that topical study is wrong, but I just feel that he uses topics alot. I have never heard a straight, clear, exegetical address of a pericope. I too have preached topically, but I often preach a single passage exegetically. I would be more satisfied with a few strong exegetical sermons to listen to from him.

While I don't think he is wrong in the manner that some have pointed out, I just feel that he could do better. Overall, it is as if I am listening (or reading) a really good marketing of Christianity. I am not a fan of marketing.

 

[El_Guero]

As I read through this thread I noticed this comment.

Another reformer chimes in with inaccurate information. That makes three already. Any others?

At least 2bhizown has told me something that I always had suspected. Reformers believe Calvinism = Scripture [emphasis added]. And you have the gall to call PDL man centered? :laugh:

I am not normally a Calvinist, but I have to admit that few 'great' 'Theologians' are not calvinistic. I would have to say that if one studies much other than the Bible one would have to be pulled towards Calvinism if one is looking for strong Theology.

Every time that I have read more theology than I have read Bible, I have been pulled towards calvinistic thought.

But, I do not think it fair to claim that someone else is equating their Theology with Scripture just because they are (or are not) calvinistic.

And having read a significant amount of Calvin, I have to admit - I would rather read him than to read PDL. IMHO, even where I do not agree with Calvin's assertions, he was a great theologian and a solid logician. Where I to start by believing two of his premises, I would end up where he ends up.

 

[J.D.]

And having read a significant amount of Calvin, I have to admit - I would rather read him than to read PDL.

Thank you El Guero for pinning it down for me. Now I know how to explain my own feelings on PDL and other "christian pop" works. You've hit the old nail on the head - agree or not, Calvin's writings are overwhelmingly rich in scripture and logic. Nothing is held back. When I read him and John Owen and John Bunyan and Johnathan Edwards and others like them it makes me tingle. I've tried to force myself a number of times to read PDL it's like drinking water when you expect milk and honey.

 

[webdog]

I would have to say that if one studies much other than the Bible one would have to be pulled towards Calvinism if one is looking for strong Theology.

...and this is the problem. Scripture does not pull you towards calvinism.

 

[Brother James]

The religion reporter for the Wall Street Journal has again contacted me for help in connection with an upcoming story they are doing on the adverse effects and expelled resistors of the Purpose Driven Church movement.


If you have RECENTLY been FORCED out of your church because the leadership there embraced Rick Warren's teachings and programs and became Purpose Driven, I would like to hear from you.


Please respond to this email message only if your situation specifically matches the underlined criteria above and I will put you in touch.


Thanks for your patience and assistance.


Paul Proctor
upperroom@bellsouth.net

 

[Lagardo]

Wow, I read through nine pages of this and still only found the same old routine: Attack what you don't like by taking thngs out of context, twisting the truth, and then using essays written by others doing the same to back you up.

Has anyone actually considered the purpose behind Purpose Driven Life? Its nothing more than a tool to reach lost people. You scream for doctrine, yet I have never seen complete doctrine preached from a Chick Tract.

Then there's the sweeping generalities: "All mega-churches are man centered"

What about that one back in Jerusalem that grew from 11 to 3000 in one day? Man centered?

I'm beginning to think that what a lot of what I'm reading is an excuse for laziness. Someone preaches from their pulpit day after day. They don't lead their congregation to go beyond the church walls. They haven't personally told a lost person about Christ in years so they are convinced that the only way to grow a church would be to compromise on Biblical Truth. Then, to defend their cushy pulpit, they label any other minister who might be working harder than they are at the Great Commission and write an essay about him. And don't worry, we have the doctrine for the lazy man: "Its God who saves them." After all, Jesus didn't tell us to go and do anything did He?

Sweeping generality? Yeah, I suppose and if it doesn't apply to you, then don't worry about it. However, these attacks against churches who are fulfilling the great commission really should give us pause to wonder who wants to attack it so badly?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Then there's the sweeping generalities: "All mega-churches are man centered"

I may have missed it, but I don't think anyone said that. Would you please provide a quote and a link? Some of the most Biblical Pastors I have seen were pastors at mega churches...of course Spurgeon comes to mind.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[2BHizown]

The point is, 'who are people being urged to follow?' and to what reference are they directed?

Scripture commands us to be discerning, to take what we are told from the pulpit and put it against scripture to see if it is so!

Lagardo says:
Wow, I read through nine pages of this and still only found the same old routine: Attack what you don't like by taking thngs out of context, twisting the truth, and then using essays written by others doing the same to back you up

The pages of this thread are frrom christians making an effort to show that scripturally the PDL is a diversion from what is instructed for a pastor according to the bible and that is commendable. Attacks are not desirable but then if and when anyone preaches to you anything that varies from the whole gospel of God then it should be treated as false doctrine, false teachers. Our whole loyalty is to Christ, His work on the cross and it is only to Him and His biblically declared 'purpose' that we must adhere without any wavering whatsoever! No man on earth can declare a purpose for christians to follow, no set of rules or dogma other that scripture itself and when churches lay down their bible to take up PDL that is heresy!

Those who wrote to this thread, stating their concerns are to be commended for hashing it out, seeking only God's truth and no other!! ' Here I stand, God help me, I can do no other!!'

 

[Lagardo]

The huge seeker sensitive 'churches' today are man's effort to please God by saying, "See how good I did. I got this whole place filled up'. Nowhere in scripture is such a command given, just 'Preach the Word'. God does the rest and also gets credit and glory for all of it!!

This was the closest I found, so if I misquoted, then I do apologize. But, lets address this. The command is not "just 'preach the word.'" The command is to: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen." Matthew 28:19, 20, NKJV.

Now the PD method addresses this command with three of the purposes: Evangelism, Felowship, and Discipleship. The baseball diamond illustration used in PD pretty much follows this command to fruition as someone accepts Christ, is brought into the fellowship of the local church (101), is taught to obey (201), and eventually (301 and 401) is sent to go and make new disciples.

Some PD churches do this better than others. Usually, I find that the arguments against PD are about the initial evangelistic stage. Maybe the problem is that some don't see this command as a process and Rick Warren does. Who knows, but I rarely see any criticism of Warrens 201-401 material.

I do have problems with some of what Rick Warren does and for that reason (and others, including God called me to be here not there), I do not attend his church. I am not in a PD church now. I have been and it was not a good place at all, but that had nothing do to with their PD approach (they did it badly).

About three years ago, I attended a seminar put on by Thom Rainer. Thom does a lot of good research into various trends and I find that he often debunks some ideas that float around new church models. He supports others, but I think what he presents is accurate and founded in his research. Anyway, when I heard him speak, he gave the results to a recent survey: Out of 1000 lost people in the USA, 90% had never been invited to a church. 95% had never heard the plan of salvation. Do they want to? Well, 11% of the people contacted in Rainer's survey recieved Christ over the phone! 26% said they wanted to hear more!

Sadly, the growth of our churches does not show that we live in a world where lost people are hungry for truth. Could that possibly be because we have ignored the command to "Go and make disciples?"

To believe that you do not have the responsibility to go and make disciples is not only lazy, but it goes against scripture. I am amazed, then, and the amount of energy we put forth to defend our own laziness.

I am included here. How much time do I devote to going and making? Sadly, not enough. So brothers, lets go. You don't like how Warren has chosend to go? Go and do better. Show us a way to go and make disciples that you believe God has called you to. GO, GO, GO!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Hi there Lagardo,

Who here has said that they can disobey the Great Commission, or that they should do so? BTW, your quote doesn't speak against mega churches because they are large, rather because they hold to seeker sensitive theology.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

The pages of this thread are frrom christians making an effort to show that scripturally the PDL is a diversion from what is instructed for a pastor according to the bible and that is commendable.

There was no such thing happening, and quite frankly if an effort was made from Scripture to show PDL was a diversion from the truth, you failed miserably. I asked back early on for Scripture to be supplied, and all I got were RW quotes taken from context, copied works from anti-RW people, and opinions (from calvinists mainly). It's nice to see someone else on here who sees PDL for what it is and not what they think it is.

 

[2BHizown]

Lagardo:

I am included here. How much time do I devote to going and making? Sadly, not enough. So brothers, lets go. You don't like how Warren has chosend to go? Go and do better. Show us a way to go and make disciples that you believe God has called you to. GO, GO, GO!

To our own master we stand or fall, and not to any man! We are all accountable before God and we are all challenged to obey Him and those He holds us accountable to. I guess my issue with this is that there are many new or 'baby' christians that as yet have minimal discernment. To think that they could be in a PD church and to think it promoted the whole truth of God is terribly wrong! I would never want to dissuade one from considering the whole biblical truth as given in scripture rather than the rather shallow, kindergarten fare promoted by PD!

Paul rebuked the Corinthian christians for being lackadaisacal, not growing, not assuming responsibility to share God's word! Each of us must be accountable for the same!

Seeker sensitive 'churches' do focus on numbers, even by their name they are focused on the 'seeker' when scripture clearly commands our focus on a holy God! If we are faithful to scripture, teaching scripture, living scripture, sharing scripture that absolutely will not be a thrilling thing to the world. Scripture clearly states they will hate us, that is unless and until their heart is regenerated and they begin to thirst! Any effort to make scripture or the gospel more palatable to the world is watering down and is heresy! Is this not true? ANY deviation of the gospel is NO gospel!!

 

[webdog]

Seeker sensitive 'churches' do focus on numbers, even by their name they are focused on the 'seeker' when scripture clearly commands our focus on a holy God!

Another sad example of misrepresentation. Who says anything about "focusing on numbers? Is it in the book? Where does this keep coming from?

I have news for you. The great commission is geared towards "seekers", so while you are correct God is our main focus, His work that He commands is geared toward the seeker. God is after seekers!

 

[2BHizown]

Well, I think not! God's word commands that we go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature! Why? Because we have no way of knowing what state people are truly in and if we are faithful to sharing the word with everyone then God will do the work in their heart and accomplish His purpose!

It is not for the church to entice people by drama, puppets, basketball and whatever else the 'church' has devised in the past while but to be faithful to the word of God and allow Him to work and fullfil HIs purpose, not our purpose!!

 

[webdog]

It is not for the church to entice people by drama, puppets, basketball and whatever else the 'church' has devised in the past while but to be faithful to the word of God and allow Him to work and fullfil HIs purpose, not our purpose!!

I think we have nailed it down why the dislike of PDL...it has to do with church type / style. If you don't like a church's style, don't bash the man, his work and smeer his name through the mud. Saddleback is Elder led (plural), so RW is not the dictator. Church style is developed by the elderS. I don't like plenty of church "styles", but I do not go off on a tangent on the pastor. We are also called to make disciples, which in turn go out and make other disciples. This is PDL, not the self absorbing inward focus of so many churches throughout the world today.

 

[2BHizown]

'Sarcasm' is not a fruit of the spirit! We are here to discuss our views in a kindly manner. There were no sneers made, no attacks on a pastor, only credible views and opinions! Please respond with kindness and consideration for views other than your own! God bless! Soli deo gloria!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Another sad example of misrepresentation. Who says anything about "focusing on numbers? Is it in the book? Where does this keep coming from?

I have news for you. The great commission is geared towards "seekers", so while you are correct God is our main focus, His work that He commands is geared toward the seeker. God is after seekers!

It is not. It is geared toward the lost world which does not seek God. It is God who seeks and saves the lost, not the lost which seeks God. God is not hiding, it is the lost who are fugutives ever since the first sin of Adam and Eve.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

It is not. It is geared toward the lost world which does not seek God. It is God who seeks and saves the lost, not the lost which seeks God. God is not hiding, it is the lost who are fugutives ever since the first sin of Adam and Eve.

Joseph Botwinick

Your post does not negate the numerous verses throughout the Bible telling man to seek Him. One verse does not a theology make.