Rome's Mary on the Cross and God's Throne

[DHK]

I deny it. Also I clicked on your link and that prayer wasnt there.

I venerate Thee, O great Queen, and I thank Thee for all the graces Thou hast conferred on me until now, especially for having delivered me from hell, which I have so often deserved. I love Thee, O Most amiable Lady, and because of the love I bear Thee, I promise to serve Thee always and do all in my power to make Thee loved by others. I place in Thee all my hopes; I confide my salvation to Thy care.

He places in Mary his hope of salvation. It is not Christ that saves, according to Lighouri; it is Mary. This is blasphemy. This is typical of his prayers and many other prayers of the "Catholic saints" throughout their history. Catholics are encouraged to pray these prayers.

He who prays is certain to be saved; while he who prays not is certain to be damned. All the saints were saved, and came to be saints by praying; all the accursed souls in hell were lost through neglect of prayer; if they had prayed, it is certain that they would not have been lost. And this will be one of the greatest occasions of their anguish in hell, the thought that they might have saved themselves so easily; that they had only to beg God to help them, but that now the time is past when this could avail them (from The Necessity of Prayer).

http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/prayer.php?p=146

This is an official Catholic site where one can find prayers of various "saints." You are encouraged to "pray" them. It is just a form of idolatry.

 

[Alive in Christ]

From DHKs., link....

O most holy, Immaculate Virgin and my Mother Mary, to Thee who are the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the Advocate, the hope, the refuge of sinners, I, who am the most miserable of all sinners, have recourse today.

I venerate Thee, O great Queen, and I thank Thee for all the graces Thou hast conferred on me until now, especially for having delivered me from hell, which I have so often deserved.



I love Thee, O Most amiable Lady, and because of the love I bear Thee, I promise to serve Thee always and do all in my power to make Thee loved by others. I place in Thee all my hopes; I confide my salvation to Thy care. Accept me as Thy servant, and shelter me under Thy mantle, O Mother of Mercy. And since You are so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations, or obtain for me the strength to triumph over them until my death.

Of Thee I ask a perfect love of Jesus Christ. From Thee I hope to die a good death. O Mary, my Mother, for the love You bear to God, I beg You to help me always, but especially at the last moment of my life. Leave me not, I beseech Thee, until Thou seest me safe in Heaven, blessing Thee and singing Thy mercies for all eternity. Amen. So I hope. So may it be.

Unfathomable herese. Unimaginable Blasphemy. Helishness beyond all comprenshion

 

[Walter]

What I have quoted and what others have quoted show beyond question that the RCC has created a Quadrinity with Mary as the fourth member of it, your tortured logic aside. And that is blasphemy. Anyone objectively reading these quotes can see that they attribute to Mary qualities that only God possesses.

And, btw, I do consider you my brother, also, but I think you are on dangerous ground. That is why I post as I do.

You have stated this since you began posting in this 'Other Christian denominations' forum of the board and I'm glad you make this clear. Others on this board do not consider us Christians. You have stated that Catholics, by way of embracing the ancient creeds, fall into what you see as Christian orthodoxy. I also believe you post your objections to Catholicism out of genuine care and concern for us and not out of a hatred of Catholics.

 

[WestminsterMan]

And during all of this anti-Catholic, anti-Mary bashing banner adds are running here on Baptistboard proclaiming the "Apparitions of Mary." Indeed, God does work in mysterious ways. :godisgood:

WM

P.s. Sorry... this is just too tempting.

 

[Walter]

And during all of this anti-Catholic, anti-Mary bashing banner adds are running here on Baptistboard proclaiming the "Apparitions of Mary." Indeed, God does work in mysterious ways. :godisgood:

WM

P.s. Sorry... this is just to tempting.

:thumbsup: :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven

2 Thess. 2:15 -Here St. Paul asks us to hold fast to the oral (not just written) Tradition. Tradition NEVER is placed above scripture and must not contradict it. Apostolic Tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary's bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary's bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

Seriously, your interpreting the ark of your might as Mary.....really?

And read the 2nd proof text in its proper context. He called you to this through our gospel, that we might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I see nothing in any scripture that says Mary is Bodily elevated to Heaven. Thats RC BS.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thats not quite true. There are two acceptable theories when it comes to the Assumption of Mary for Catholics. One is follows an eastern Tradition called the Dormition where Mary actually died and was resurrected and Translated directly to heaven by God. The other is that she did not die but was translated to heaven by God. Either way it is believed that God took her to heaven much like God to both Enoch and Elijah to heaven. But you can believe in the Dormition or direct translation of Mary to hold the Assumption of Mary.

Sorry I dont buy theories.....

1) "then Peter & the other apostles answered & said" - and they are before the court again - "We ought to obey God rather than men.... you can read the whole enchilada in Acts 5:29-32.

 

[WestminsterMan]

What I have quoted and what others have quoted show beyond question that the RCC has created a Quadrinity with Mary as the fourth member of it, your tortured logic aside. And that is blasphemy. Anyone objectively reading these quotes can see that they attribute to Mary qualities that only God possesses.

It only proves something to people who begin their logical cogitations from a false premise. For example, the Church does not teach anything like what you describe above anymore than it teaches that because the Apostles, who performed miracles, did so because they had powers that God possesses. He enabled them to do these things. All things are possible through God.

In all fairness to you, however, I can see how you might come to such a position. Remember that, until recently, I was a Baptist myself.

And, btw, I do consider you my brother, also, but I think you are on dangerous ground. That is why I post as I do.

Why thank you Sir Thomas! God bless.
WM

 

[Walter]

From DHKs., link....




Unfathomable herese. Unimaginable Blasphemy. Helishness beyond all comprenshion

I do understand why you Baptists reject Mary as an intercessor having once been a fervent Baptist at one time myself. I wish to point out that -- whatever one thinks of this belief -- it does not entail a usurpation of God's unique glory and divinity and a raising of Mary to that exalted position of majesty. Mary is what she is only due to a sheer act of God's grace and election ("in whom Thou hast placed the hope"). This does not make Mary God; it makes her, rather, God's chosen vessel (a vastly different notion). God can do whatsoever He pleases.
One may disagree with the intercession of Mary, but it is impossible to state that God could not possibly have ordained this. God can raise up stones to praise and serve Him if He so chooses (Mt 3:9); He can use a donkey (Numbers 22:22-35) to rebuke a man.

 

[DHK]

Thats not quite true. There are two acceptable theories when it comes to the Assumption of Mary for Catholics. One is follows an eastern Tradition called the Dormition where Mary actually died and was resurrected and Translated directly to heaven by God. The other is that she did not die but was translated to heaven by God. Either way it is believed that God took her to heaven much like God to both Enoch and Elijah to heaven. But you can believe in the Dormition or direct translation of Mary to hold the Assumption of Mary.

There are no acceptable "theories" when it comes to the assumption of Mary. It is a pagan belief. Why not just belief that all great, great grandmothers were assumed into heaven? It makes the same amount of sense. You can believe whatever you want. It is called "blind faith." It has no foundation in facts. It is the same kind of faith required by Muslims to strap a bomb on themselves, go and blow themselves up, that being the guarantee that they will be in paradise when they die. What basis do they have for that promise. None. Neither do you have any basis for your belief. It has no foundation. It is blind faith.

All that we believe; our entire Christian faith is based on the gospel, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Assumption is not in the Bible; it is as good as a fairytale. The Bible is a known historical fact. My faith is based on factual evidence. Yours is based on myth--the myth of the Assumption. With such man-made doctrine that has no foundation you can make up just about anything you want to. Do you believe in green men inhabiting Pluto that eat green cheese, and if you eat green cheese too they will be kind to you? Why not?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do understand why you Baptists reject Mary as an intercessor having once been a fervent Baptist at one time myself. I wish to point out that -- whatever one thinks of this belief -- it does not entail a usurpation of God's unique glory and divinity and a raising of Mary to that exalted position of majesty. Mary is what she is only due to a sheer act of God's grace and election ("in whom Thou hast placed the hope"). This does not make Mary God; it makes her, rather, God's chosen vessel (a vastly different notion). God can do whatsoever He pleases.
One may disagree with the intercession of Mary, but it is impossible to state that God could not possibly have ordained this. God can raise up stones to praise and serve Him if He so chooses (Mt 3:9); He can use a donkey (Numbers 22:22-35) to rebuke a man.

Because the RCC in all its arrogance has attempted to usurp the job of the HS by making Mary the intersession princess....so by attempting that little magic act they forcefully tried to destroy the unity & harmony of the Trinity.

 

[DHK]

I do understand why you Baptists reject Mary as an intercessor having once been a fervent Baptist at one time myself. I wish to point out that -- whatever one thinks of this belief -- it does not entail a usurpation of God's unique glory and divinity and a raising of Mary to that exalted position of majesty. Mary is what she is only due to a sheer act of God's grace and election ("in whom Thou hast placed the hope"). This does not make Mary God; it makes her, rather, God's chosen vessel (a vastly different notion). God can do whatsoever He pleases.
One may disagree with the intercession of Mary, but it is impossible to state that God could not possibly have ordained this. God can raise up stones to praise and serve Him if He so chooses (Mt 3:9); He can use a donkey (Numbers 22:22-35) to rebuke a man.

"There is one mediator between man and God; the man Christ Jesus."
Do you believe the Scripture.
Either you do or you don't. It is that simple.

 

[Walter]

"There is one mediator between man and God; the man Christ Jesus."
Do you believe the Scripture.
Either you do or you don't. It is that simple.

As it has been pointed out many times on this board, Mary intercedes. I intercede, you intercede. Does that make you or me the 'One Mediator' of which you speak? Of course not!

Ask yourself, "What is the 'mediation' of Christ? In what sense is Jesus the 'mediator' between God and man?" He Atones for our sins, right? A intercessor is one who speaks or acts on behalf of another, or one who brings estranged parties to agreement (see verses below). Now, what Jesus did, He reconciled man to the Lord "once for all" because we could not, and he continues to mediate by communicating the Lord's graces to man. No Christian (as far as I know) would disagree with this.

When we pray to the saints, we are soliciting their prayers. We hope to capitalize on their wisdom and virtue, which creates perfect prayers to the Lord. "The prayer of the righteous availeth much" (James 5:16 KJV).

Now, what is going on in these verses?

Rom 11:13-14
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
14 in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

1 Cor 7:16 Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Tim 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

James 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Jude 1:22-23
22 And convince some, who doubt;
23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

These verses can only mean that there must be some legitimate way in which the saints (both here on earth and those in heaven), participate in our salvation without usurping the role of Christ.


Mary is strictly "after Jesus." St. Alphonsus and Catholic theology see no necessary dichotomy between "graces that I have received from God" and chosen earthly vessels through which God chose to send that grace. The grace originates from God, not Mary, just as Jesus came from God, but was born of a woman. This does not entail Mary being "above God" or equal with God (as inferred by the title of this thread) at all.

Now listen to what St. Alphonsus goes on to say (which those on this board conveniently left out!)

'God, to glorify the Mother of the Redeemer, has so determined and disposed that of her great charity she should intercede on behalf of all those for whom his divine Son paid and offered the superabundant price of his precious blood in which alone is our salvation, life, and resurrection." On this doctrine, and on all that is in accordance with it, I ground my propositions . . . the plenitude of all grace which is in Christ as the Head, from which it flows, as from its source; and in Mary, as in the neck through which it flows.

She intercedes for those 'blood-bought' by Jesus' death on the cross. St. Alphonsus makes it very clear that it is in 'His precious Blood Alone' in which our salvation is grounded. Yes, Jesus is the One Mediator between God and man.

 

[Walter]

Again, St. Alphonsus makes the Catholic position abundantly clear in his book 'The Glories of Mary'. Here is an excerpt:

. . . it is one thing to say that God cannot, and another that he will not, grant graces without the intercession of Mary. We willingly admit that God is the source of every good, and the absolute master of all graces; and that Mary is only a pure creature, who receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God . . . We most readily admit that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator of justice . . . and that by his merits he obtains us all graces and salvation; but we say that Mary is the mediatress of grace; and that receiving all she obtains through Jesus Christ, and because she prays and asks for it in the name of Jesus Christ . . . (pp. 156-157)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Again, St. Alphonsus makes the Catholic position abundantly clear in his book 'The Glories of Mary'. Here is an excerpt:

. . . it is one thing to say that God cannot, and another that he will not, grant graces without the intercession of Mary. We willingly admit that God is the source of every good, and the absolute master of all graces; and that Mary is only a pure creature, who receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God . . . We most readily admit that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator of justice . . . and that by his merits he obtains us all graces and salvation; but we say that Mary is the mediatress of grace; and that receiving all she obtains through Jesus Christ, and because she prays and asks for it in the name of Jesus Christ . . . (pp. 156-157)

I will bet that when you were a baptist that you would never have allowed the pronouncements of Spurgeon, Edwards, Calvin or any of the Puritan Divines to dictate doctrine...am I right?

 

[DHK]

As it has been pointed out many times on this board, Mary intercedes. I intercede, you intercede. Does that make you or me the 'One Mediator' of which you speak? Of course not!

To put it bluntly, when you pray to the dead (which Mary and the "saints" are), it is an abomination before God, condemned in the Bible, and a practice that falls under necromancy. It also is idolatry. It also is a form of worship. You play around with words blindly. You are not asking for intercession. You are praying TO someone. That is not something you would do to me or anyone else here. You would not come and bow down before me, venerate me, etc. That is idolatry, and it is what you do with Mary and the saints, as is indicated here in many different examples:
http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/prayer.php?p=146

Ask yourself, "What is the 'mediation' of Christ? In what sense is Jesus the 'mediator' between God and man?" He Atones for our sins, right? A intercessor is one who speaks or acts on behalf of another, or one who brings estranged parties to agreement (see verses below). Now, what Jesus did, He reconciled man to the Lord "once for all" because we could not, and he continues to mediate by communicating the Lord's graces to man. No Christian (as far as I know) would disagree with this.

OK

When we pray to the saints, we are soliciting their prayers. We hope to capitalize on their wisdom and virtue, which creates perfect prayers to the Lord. "The prayer of the righteous availeth much" (James 5:16 KJV).

And that falls under the definition of communication with the dead or necromancy. In the OT, those that did those things were put to death. The former lieutenant-governor of Quebec was a Spiritist. She never hid the fact that she communicated with her dead parents and grandparents. She "talked" with them on a regular basis. There is no difference between what she did and what you do. Spiritism is an occult. It is part of Satanism.

Now, what is going on in these verses?

Rom 11:13-14
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
14 in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

He is telling the Roman believers about his ministry. So?

1 Cor 7:16 Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?

This entire chapter is a chapter devoted to giving advice about marital problems in the church at Corinth. So?

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Paul is telling them how he adapts to other cultures in order that he might win others to Christ, and that they should do the same. He sets an example for others. So?

1 Tim 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

It is advice to Timothy, the pastor at Ephesus. Pay attention to doctrine. So?

James 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Advice from James. The death spoken of here is physical death. So?

Jude 1:22-23
22 And convince some, who doubt;
23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

The context is false teachers. Perhaps it is possible to save some who have fallen under their influence if we can get them out from their influence, like yourself. The RCC has its garment spotted by the flesh.

These verses can only mean that there must be some legitimate way in which the saints (both here on earth and those in heaven), participate in our salvation without usurping the role of Christ.

Not even one of them has that meaning; not a single verse, as I have indicated.

Mary is strictly "after Jesus." St. Alphonsus and Catholic theology see no necessary dichotomy between "graces that I have received from God" and chosen earthly vessels through which God chose to send that grace. The grace originates from God, not Mary, just as Jesus came from God, but was born of a woman. This does not entail Mary being "above God" or equal with God (as inferred by the title of this thread) at all.

Mary is seen as the source of salvation; that is blasphemy. Read carefully.

Now listen to what St. Alphonsus goes on to say (which those on this board conveniently left out!)

'God, to glorify the Mother of the Redeemer, has so determined and disposed that of her great charity she should intercede on behalf of all those for whom his divine Son paid and offered the superabundant price of his precious blood in which alone is our salvation, life, and resurrection." On this doctrine, and on all that is in accordance with it, I ground my propositions . . . the plenitude of all grace which is in Christ as the Head, from which it flows, as from its source; and in Mary, as in the neck through which it flows.

She intercedes for those 'blood-bought' by Jesus' death on the cross. St. Alphonsus makes it very clear that it is in 'His precious Blood Alone' in which our salvation is grounded. Yes, Jesus is the One Mediator between God and man.

That is one small part of the prayer. I quoted the entire prayer that was posted. He definitely attributes salvation to Mary.

 

[Walter]

The saints are very much alive, DHK. God is the God of the living, is He not? No nacromancy involved in asking living saints to pray for us.
Necromancy:

The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
Black magic; sorcery.
Magic qualities

And from St. George Greek Orthodox Cathedrals website: ' Christ is the perfect Mediator as the Son of God and true Man because he is of both natures. However Christ also works and rests in His saints giving them the role of mediator or mediatress. Many discount this important role that Mary and all the saints play for us based on misinterpretation of the Epistle of Paul to Timothy that says, “there is one God, and one (eis) Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...” (1 Tim 2:5-6). The proper understanding of the use of the word “one” is to emphasize our Savior's transcendence as Mediator.
The word “one” was translated from the Greek word eis which in this case means the numeral “one. Paul did not use monos meaning “only” or “alone” which eis never implies. We must also understand the context of the verse preceding it. Saint John Chrysostom remarks that Paul is referring here to the salvation of the heathen. Therefore Paul is referring to the unique value of Christ’s redemptive death not that He is the exclusive or only mediator. Therefore we should not have any concern about the the practice of addressing the Theotokos as a mediatress or the saints a intercessors because of any scriptural text'.

If what I bolded were not true there would be no sense in me asking others to pray for me.

http://www.stgeorgegreenville.org/OurFaith/Feasts for Theotokos/Mediatress.html

 

[DHK]

The saints are very much alive, DHK. God is the God of the living, is He not?

I know of some friends that go to a nearby cemetery. They go there not to pray, but to remember. They would never think of praying to their dead loved ones, saved or not. They are commanded not to. It is sin.

No nacromancy involved in asking living saints to pray for us.
Necromancy:

The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
Black magic; sorcery.
Magic qualities

Your definitions are true narrow. Here are some that are drawn from the Bible itself. First, a Scripture from where I found the word:

Deuteronomy 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
--My definitions come from various commentators commenting on this exact verse:

1. A necromancer; one that calleth up and inquireth of the dead, 1Sa 28:8; Isa 8:19. (Matthew Poole)
2. A necromancer - [FONT=&quot]דרש[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]אל[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]המתים[/FONT] doresh el hammethim, one who seeks from or inquires of the dead. Such as the witch at Endor, who professed to evoke the dead, in order to get them to disclose the secrets of the spiritual world. (Adam Clarke)
3. A necromancer - One that calleth up and inquireth of the dead. (John Wesley's)
4. One who pretended to discover unknown and future events by summoning and interrogating the dead, De 18:10-11, a crime punishable by stoning to death, Le 20:27. See SORCERER. No good reason can be given for believing that such pretended communications with departed spirits are less offensive to God now than in the time of Moses. (American Tract Society Dictionary)
--The RCC practices what these sources accurately define as necromancy.

And from St. George Greek Orthodox Cathedrals website: ' Christ is the perfect Mediator as the Son of God and true Man because he is of both natures.

So far so good.

However Christ also works and rests in His saints giving them the role of mediator or mediatress.

Total blasphemy. Do they get this concept from Hinduism or what. Maybe Constantine introduced it when he introduced some of the other aspects of paganism in the fourth century.

Many discount this important role that Mary and all the saints play for us based on misinterpretation of the Epistle of Paul to Timothy that says, “there is one God, and one (eis) Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...” (1 Tim 2:5-6). The proper understanding of the use of the word “one” is to emphasize our Savior's transcendence as Mediator.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The only one who has the right to be called our mediator, advocate, Great High Priest, Intercessor, is Jesus Christ alone. No one else has that right.

The word “one” was translated from the Greek word eis which in this case means the numeral “one. Paul did not use monos meaning “only” or “alone” which eis never implies.

Let's see about that:

One God (heis theos). Regular Pauline argument for a universal gospel (Ga 3:20; Ro 3:30; Eph 4:6). One mediator (heis mesitês). Late word (Polybius, Philo) from mesos (middle), a middle man. In N.T. only here, Ga 3:20; Heb 8:6; 9:15; 12:24. Between God and men (theou kai anthrôpôn). Ablative case (though objective genitive may explain it) after mesitês (notion of separation) as in Ro 10:12; Heb 5:14. Himself man (anthrôpos). No "himself" (autos) in the Greek. {A.T. Robertson)

--It is clear that he did mean one man and one mediator, your opinion not withstanding.

We must also understand the context of the verse preceding it. Saint John Chrysostom remarks that Paul is referring here to the salvation of the heathen.

Paul expresses his concern for the salvation of ALL men Jews and Gentiles.

Therefore Paul is referring to the unique value of Christ’s redemptive death not that He is the exclusive or only mediator.

Nonsense. He means what he says. Why do you want to deny the Bible only to support a pagan theology that wants to worship Mary. Just become a Hindu where they have many gods to worship. One doesn't have to make gods out of Mary and other saints. In Christianity there is only One God. Worship Him alone.

Therefore we should not have any concern about the the practice of addressing the Theotokos as a mediatress or the saints a intercessors because of any scriptural text'.

You turn to a Catholic website for a corrupt interpretation for this text.
It supports the false doctrine of theotokos.
It supports the pagan idea of Mary as a mediaatrix or meiatress, etc.
Why would you do that?

If what I bolded were not true there would be no sense in me asking others to pray for me.

The text says what it says. Christ is the only mediator between God and man. You cannot pray to your friends, or others in heaven. You cannot worship them. To pray TO them or TO us is to worship them/us, and it is idolatry.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

[/U][/B]

You have stated this since you began posting in this 'Other Christian denominations' forum of the board and I'm glad you make this clear. Others on this board do not consider us Christians. You have stated that Catholics, by way of embracing the ancient creeds, fall into what you see as Christian orthodoxy. I also believe you post your objections to Catholicism out of genuine care and concern for us and not out of a hatred of Catholics.

Thank you. What you have said is true.

I would just add that because of these teachings and beliefs about Mary, and an infallible pope, that the RCC is on the edge of orthodoxy.

But I do also appreciate the RCC stance on abortion and homosexuality.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I don't know how anyone can read the things I and others have quoted and not see that the attributes given to Mary belong only to God. It is clear as day.