Featured Rome's Mary on the Cross and God's Throne

Did anyone in the Bible pray to the dead apostles?

Only the person who is Omni-Present, Omni-Scient, Omni-Potent can receive the prayers from millions of people.

Can Mary listen to the prayer from Japan and from Italy, from Ireland, Poland, Mexico, Argentine, Philippines, South Africa, at the same time?

If you think so, it is your delusion!

Please wake up from that delusion!


Praying to Mary means Prayer to the delusion or imagination, or to Apparition.

Otherwise, you will realize the big big mistakes of your own at the Judgment Seat!

You will lose yourself!

You will suffer the big Loss! You are causing the big Loss for yourself!

Prayer to Mary is NOTHING but the Idolatry!

 

Roman Catholic pray to the saints more than a thousand.

Prayer can be addressed only to the Omni-Present, Omni-Scient, Omni-Potent, the ONLY God.

RCC's prayer to the saints prove that they are Polytheists!

Trinity God in RCC means the stronger gods than other gods.

Their god is the son of the goddes Mary.

They deny the eternal effect of the Sacrifice by Jesus Christ and therefore they sacrifice every day, every week, asking their god to forgive their sins as they don't believe all the since were forgiven already at the Cross, ONCE FOR ALL.

RCC is therefore absolutely a pagan, a center of Babylonian Religion!

They are going to the Lake of Fire and the eternal punishment is waiting for them!

 

Tom...were you ever A Roman Catholic?

 

No. When I rebelled from my upbringing at about 20 and became briefly agnostic, I researched every denomination and other religions, too. What I learned about the RCC made me realize I could never be in that. But I decided the same about the Calvinist denominations, too.

 

NONE of the Apostles EVER prayed to any one but God! To pray to mary/peter/paul is idolatry and blashemphy, for ONLY God the father is worthy of pray!

We pray to him, in name of jesus, thru/by the HS...

catholics do still recite 'our father' don't they?

 

I am willing to accept the testimony of the Fathers of the Church as to the dogma of the Trinity, Christology, Mary as Theotokos (not Christokos), as well as the final canon of the New Testament Scriptures. So I am also able to accept their testimony concerning the intercession and invocation of the saints. I believe DHK has expressed concern regarding relying on the ECF's for anything. Some of them did indeed hold to some heretical views, but those views were debated and brought to the light. Nobody ever debated the validity of the invocation of the saints.
So at what point do these fallen men cease being quotable and citable and become unreliable and heretical? Throw the baby out with the bathwater? I certainly think that is what happened at the Reformation.
I found in my studies that asking saints to pray for us is supported by writings of the same men who were the defenders and promoters of the Nicene Creed. The Fathers that had suffered, struggled, and even died for the doctrine of the Trinity, and the full divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, those who described this relationship in language too rarified for me to fully comprehend to this day. And in the face of all else we disagree upon, most here would agree on the these dogmas (Trinity, Christology) as pounded out by these men.
The Patristic and Scriptural Testimony:
Book of Tobit (~ 200 – 100 BC)

When thou didst pray with tears… I [Archangel Raphael] offered thy prayer to the Lord.[12]

St. John the Evangelist (+101)

And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.[13]

Eygptian Liturgy for the Nativity of Christ (200 AD)
Beneath thy tenderness of heart
we take refuge, O Theotokos,
disdain not our supplications in our necessity,
but deliver us from perils,
O only pure and blessed one.

St. Ephraim the Syrian (+373)

Remember me, ye heirs of God, ye brethren of Christ, supplicate the Saviour earnestly for me, that I may be freed though Christ from him that fights against me day by day.[14]

Ye victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Saviour; ye who have boldness of speech towards the Lord Himself; ye saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us that so we may love him.[15]
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (+386)

We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God, by their prayers and intercessions, may receive our petitions.[16]


George Bebis on the Cappadocian Fathers

“In one of his letters, St. Basil (+379) explicitly writes that he accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks their prayers to God. (Letter 360) Then, speaking about the Forty Martyrs, who suffered martyrdom for Christ, he emphasizes that they are common friends of the human race, strong ambassadors and collaborators in fervent prayers. (Chapter 8)

“St. Gregory of Nyssa (+395-400) asks St. Theodore the Martyr …to fervently pray to our Common King, our God, for the country and the people (Encomium to Martyr Theodore).

“The same language is used by St. Gregory the Theologian (+390) in his encomium to St. Cyprian. (Gen. 44: 2 and Encomium to Julian, Iuventinus and Maximinus, 3).”[17]


St. Basil the Great, of Caesarea in Asia Minor (+379)

According to the blameless faith of the Christians which we have obtained from God, I confess and agree that I believe in one God the Father Almighty; God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost; I adore and worship one God, the Three. I confess to the oeconomy of the Son in the flesh, and that the holy Mary, who gave birth to Him according to the flesh, was Mother of God. I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom may be made and given me for my sins. Wherefore also I honour and kiss the features of their images, inasmuch as they have been handed down from the holy apostles, and are not forbidden, but are in all our churches.[18]

We beseech you, O most holy martyrs, who cheerfully suffered torments and death for his love, and are now more familiarly united to him, that you intercede with God for us slothful and wretched sinners, that he bestow on us the grace of Christ, by which we may be enlightened and enabled to love him.[19]

O holy choir! O sacred band! O unbroken host of warriors! O common guardians of the human race! Ye gracious sharers of our cares! Ye co-operators in our prayer! Most powerful intercessors![20]


St. Gregory the Theologian, Patriarch of Constantinople; of Nazianzus in Asia Minor (+389-390)

Mayest thou [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd [or shepherd with me] this sacred flock . . . gladdening us with a more perfect and clear illumination of the Holy Trinity, before Which thou standest.[21] [“In like manner does Gregory pray to St. Athanasius (Orat. xxi, "In laud. S. Athan.", P.G., XXXV, 1128).][22]

“...we should here bear in mind Bellarmine's remarks: "When we say that nothing should be asked of the saints but their prayer for us, the question is not about the words, but the sense of the words. For as far as the words go, it is lawful to say: 'St. Peter, pity me, save me, open for me the gate of heaven'; also, 'Give me health of body, patience, fortitude', etc., provided that we mean 'save and pity me by praying for me'; 'grant me this or that by thy prayers and merits.' For so speaks Gregory of Nazianzus (Orat. xviii — according to others, xxiv — "De S. Cypriano" in P. G., XXXV, 1193; "Orat. de S. Athan.: In Laud. S. Athanas.", Orat. xxi, in P. G., XXXV, 1128); in "De Sanct. Beatif.", I, 17. … In like manner does Gregory pray to St. Athanasius (Orat. xxi, "In laud. S. Athan.", P. G., XXXV, 1128).”[23]


St. Gregory of Nyssa in Lower Armenia (+395-400)

...I wish to commemorate one person who spoke of their noble testimony because I am close to Ibora, the village and resting place of these forty martyrs' remains. Here the Romans keep a register of soldiers, one of whom was a guard ordered by his commander to protect against invasions, a practice common to soldiers in such remote areas. This man suffered from an injured foot which was later amputated. Being in the martyrs' resting place, he earnestly beseeched God and the intercession of the saints. One night there appeared a man of venerable appearance in the company of others who said, "Oh soldier, do you want to be healed [J.167] of your infirmity? Give me your foot that I may touch it." When he awoke from the dream, his foot was completely healed. Once he awoke from this vision, his foot was restored to health. He roused the other sleeping men because he was immediately cured and made whole. This men then began to proclaim the miracle performed by the martyrs and acknowledged the kindness bestowed by these fellow soldiers…. We who freely and boldly enter paradise are strengthened by the [martyrs'] intercession through a noble confession in our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.[24]

Do thou, [St. Ephraim the Syrian] that art standing at the Divine altar, and art ministering with angels to the life-giving and most Holy Trinity, bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom.[25]


St. Ambrose of Milan (+397)

May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benignant countenance.[26]


St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople; b. Antioch, Syria (+407)

When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies . . . but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power [parresian, "boldness of speech"].[27]

He that wears the purple, laying aside his pomp, stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God; and he that wears the diadem begs the Tent-maker and the Fisherman as patrons, even though they be dead.[28]

“[St. John] says that we should seek the intercession and the fervent prayers of the saints, because they have special "boldness" (parresia), before God. (Gen. 44: 2 and Encomium to Julian, Iuventinus and Maximinus, 3).”[29]


St. Jerome (+419)

If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One man, Moses, obtains from God pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul declares that two hundred three score and sixteen souls, sailing with him, were freely given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of those who throughout the whole world believed at his preaching of the Gospel? And shall the living dog Vigilantius be better than that dead lion?[30]



The testimony is indeed overwhelming and the FACT that requesting the prayers of the saints was NEVER debated by the Church from the time of it's founding and the biblical support leads me to believe that I'm not standing on shaky ground at all

 

Well, at least the brother got the RCC pegged rightly!

 

again, NONE of those quoted here have inspiration/infallibility in regards to doctrines as the Apostles had!

WHAT verses supporting the vie of mary by the RCC?
WHAT verses support saints intercession, or to have prayers to them or mary?

NO bible support, not of God!

 

St. John was certainly an Apostle. David certainly had inspiration.


St. John the Evangelist (+101)

'And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. '[13]


And we have invocation of angels: Psalm 103:21

Bless the LORD, you his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening to the voice of his word.

Psalm 148:2 Praise you him, all his angels: praise you him, all his hosts.

David is speaking directly to angels here.

 

incest of prayers that went up to the throne of God!
david was extolling the angels, praising what they were doing, NOT talking to them!

We do know Apsotle John tried to worship the angel in revelation, he was told NOT to do that, but worship only God!

 

First, the author of Psalm 148 is unknown. There is no evidence that it is David.
Second it is a Psalm where the author is expressing praise for the Lord. He is doing so that as Creator all that He has created should praise the Lord. Is that not true? Were not all things created for the praise and glory of God? There is nothing in the Scripture here that says David is directing a prayer to angels but that all of creation should be praising God.

Look at context:
Psalms 148:2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
--Does the author pray to the moon and the stars?
Absolutely not!
He is saying that the moon and the stars in their creation give praise to God.
Psalm 19 states that the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows forth his handiwork.
This is the same thought here. There is no prayer to angels, moon, stars.
Understand what is being said.

 

I see your point with the Psalms verses, DHK. Actually, I had a Catholic neighbor point out the weakness of those verses as well.
I believe the Book of Revelation gives the best description of the saints in Heaven being aware of our requests and taking them to the Lord. You must concede that the saints in Heaven have no need to be requesting anything of the Lord as they are 'complete' and 'sanctified'. They 'receive' prayers.
The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14).
These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4.
You may say that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. However, your argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
The intercession of fellow Christians (and that is exactly what the saints in Heaven are doing)clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed. Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

 

weare NOT commanded to intercede to dead people though!

Intercession would be saints praying to God for saints here living on the earth!

 

[image too big, and offensive]

 

That is pretty rude and offensive Baptist4Life. Not very charitable of you. Care to point out the 'stupidity' of my post? You continually post insults and make snarky remarks but rarely post anything in the 'bash the Catholics' threads that have any substance to them. At least I make an effort to post things other than pictures and links to websites.

I swear, it is really sad to see the mean spiritedness of some of the posters on this board. Do they really expect to 'win souls for Jesus' with this kind of behavior?

 

They haven't "received" our prayers.
They do not act as "priests" or "mediators."
There is no evidence that they "know" what the contents of the prayers are.
Read carefully, it says:
Revelation 5:8 And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, having each one harps and golden vials full of perfumes, which are the prayers of the saints, (Young's)
It simply says that each one had harps and vials. They represented the prayers of the saints. It doesn't even say that they offered them.

It doesn't say that. There are no prayers filtering upward. There is no one there "offering" prayers. It doesn't say that. There is no one interceding on anyone's behalf. You are reading too much into that passage. What they praise the Lord for is redemption; that they have been redeemed by the blood.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

That is an unreasonable conclusion based on RCC doctrine, and reading into the Scripture that which is not there. There is no one receiving prayers. The elders have harps and vials which represent prayers already made. All prayer is offered to God, but there is no hint that these prayers are even offered. It is symbolic.

Where does it say that any one in heaven but God can hear our prayers?
You are still reading into Scripture that which is not there.

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
--Some believe that the angel here is the Angel of Jehovah Himself, as He is known in the OT, or Jesus Christ. Whether he is or just another angel, the scene is ominous. The saints are most likely the Tribulation saints, and the time is right near the end of the Tribulation. Once this incense is offered, which again is symbolic of the prayers of these saints, the result is great earthquakes, thunder, lightning, and the beginning of the last of the judgments upon the earth--the most severe of God's judgments. How much longer would they endure the wrath of God?
Jesus would be coming soon. And with him the saints and angels of heaven.

There is no evidence anywhere that any saint or angel interceded for anyone in heaven. They are not priests or mediators. Your interpretation is completely wrong.
There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
It means exactly what it says.
What verse four says is that we also should pray for others to be saved. Christians on earth need to have a prayer life, and that includes praying for others, praying for the unsaved that they might come to Christ. But only Christ can save them. He alone can atone for their sins. He is the great mediator. There is no "priest" that can forgive one's sins. That makes the position of the Catholic "priest" ludicrous.

 

I posted pics of Catholics worshipping Mary. That's the truth. If that offends you, take it up with them. The RCC sending millions to hell is very offensive to me. I posted that picture of the guy slapping his forehead because it's frustrating listening to Catholics spew their garbage. I don' t apologize, nor will I ever, for being upset about that.

 

Calvin had the infant baptism at RCC.
Then no Baptism he had.

Calvin said Ok to Baptism by sprinkling

Calvin claimed Having no infant baptism may deprive the infants of the Salvation.

His predestination means 90-99% of the people who don't believe Jesus were predestined eternity past that they should not believe in Jesus.

John Wesley said " Predestination Theory is a Blasphemy of God" , which I agree.

My God never predestined Hitler to kill the Jews.

My God never predestined me to commit sins, by my own rebellious will intended to commit sins.

 

You saw what you wanted to see in the pictures regarding Mary. You concluded Catholics were 'worshipping Mary'. No discussion, just accusations.

Read DHK's response to the scripture in Revelation I was discussing. He believes I am reading to much into that passage and explains why without being rude or offensive. You, on the other hand, resort to insults and nastiness with no discussion about the topic. Just accusations and insults. And of course, even the moderator saw your post as offensive and deleted it. That speaks for itself. Nuff said.