Should Christians STRONGLY support the 2ND AMENDMENT?

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

How do you explain Jesus' words on persecution in Matthew 5?

These Old Testament saints acted in direct response to God's direction. Can you me where Christ commands us to kill to keep oureselves from persecution. He says to rejoice and be exceeding glad when we are persecuted.

 

[Pickerel]

C4K, how do you justify Jesus letting his disciples to carry swords? Were they "hunting"? Does persecution= a "Holocaust"? One may call me names even hit me or steal from me, or slander me...but no one has the right to kill me or my family...hence the God given right to defend myself against those who would take my life or the lives of my loved ones...!

Only Christ Saves!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

There is a good explanation for the sword in a post above.

Could you answer my question about persecution and Jesus' teaching on it please?

Look at the history of the kind of persecution Jesus was talking about. Yes, it was a holocaust for the early church, yet Jesus never said to "kill those who persecute you and despitefully use you".

 

[buckster75]

C4k you started me thinking.(not again) how much or what (if anything)should we do to resist persecution.(separate topic?)

 

[buckster75]

could also be that just possesing the sword kept them from being "jumped".

deterant will the guy break in if he knows every house has a gun?

 

[Pickerel]

There is a good explanation for the sword in a post above.

Could you answer my question about persecution and Jesus' teaching on it please?

Look at the history of the kind of persecution Jesus was talking about. Yes, it was a holocaust for the early church, yet Jesus never said to "kill those who persecute you and despitefully use you".

I would like to hear your response about them carrying swords...

What did Jesus say...
Rom 12:18 If it is possible , as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

I think the commandment is "do not murder" and I'm not talking about "vengeance" either...I'm talking about the God given ability do defend yourself and others from those who would take your life...Irregardless C4K if someone was about to kill you or your family and I was there, I would do EVERYTHING in my power to help you, whether you wanted my help or not...

Only Christ Saves!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by buckster75:
C4k you started me thinking.(not again) how much or what (if anything)should we do to resist persecution.(separate topic?)

I wish I had a more definite answer. I am confronted with the words of Christ and find them difficult to refute.

What did the first century church do?

Their burning bodies lighted the roads into Rome at one stage so that Ceasar would not have to travel by dark.

 

[Pickerel]

You have proof positive that none of them resisted? I am not condemning the man who gives his life for Christ anymore than I condemn the man who has to take a life(maybe even lay down his life) so that others may live...!

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Only Christ Saves!

 

[NomadsWife]

Originally posted by C4K:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by NomadsWife:
My personal opinion is this. One way or another criminals will always have guns. They'll steal what they can't buy. So why should we noncriminals give up our only protection? It's not like we are going out brandishing them and threatening people with them. We are using them to protect ourselves - and for those people who like to hunt, to hunt. So I think we should stand for our right to bear arms.

That's my opinion for what it's worth.

Besides... if God doesn't want us to have them, He'll let us know. I have learned God will let you know when you are doing something you shouldn't.

That what his word his for. Can we reconcile with Scripture Jesus' teaching to rejoice and be exceeding glad when we suffer persecution, to be willing to follow in Jesus' steps when it comes to persecution, and to pray for our persecutors with the "locked and loaded" mentality?

I've seen some opinions. I've seen Old Testament specific instructions used. I've seen "provide for you family" interpreted to mean kill someone who might take away your family's rights, but as yet no one has told me how we can respond to Jesus' instructions on persecution and how to respond.

The "take up the sword" question is worthy of looking into.

What I think I am most bothered by is the "locked and loaded", "pry my gun from my cold dead fingers", "get all the guns you can get metality." This appears to me as a violent mindset, and heart which almost looks forward to the prospect of killing the feds or anyone who might come to take away any one of our rights. Are you willing to kill someone who seeks to take away your freedom of speech? Are you willing to kill someone who seeks to come and close down your church? Would you be willing to kill someone who came to take away your Bible? Self-preservation and family protection are really a red herring here.

Can anyone use scripture to defend killing someone to protect supposed "rights" that we were granted by our Constitution, a man made document. Can anyone Biblicly defend the idea that we are born with any political rights?

I am concerned with the violent mindset in the body of Christ. Is there any record of this kind of violence in the early church? Remember what happened when the disciple cut off the soldier's ear to keep Jesus from being arrested? When Jesus said that His followers would be hauled before the courts, He did not say to kill them, He said that God would give them the words to say in court.

This is a very evocative issue. When we try to reconcile our "gut" feelings with the word of God it is not quite so simple. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not of the locked and loaded mentality. I don't even own a gun to be quite honest. But my FIL did and he was very responsible with his. Some people, however, are of that mentality and are not responsible. Those people probably should not have guns, but to punish all for the sake of those, that's what I don't believe would be fair.

As to whether I could kill someone, I don't know. If my children's lives were in danger most likely I could. If it were my life, I just don't know. I loathe hurting people so I avoid it at all costs - not that I could hurt anyone to be quite honest. I'm not a very strong person physically. But if it came down to defending my children with a gun, I'd do what I needed to do - hopefully shooting only to stop the person.

 

[OCC]

Do you REALLY believe "Only Christ Saves!"? I get the impression guns, swords, and hand grenades save as well. Correct me if I am wrong.

Pickerel, where did I say I would not stand up for anyone? Not killing someone does not mean I would not stand up for someone. I, however, am not the police. I am not to be a vigilante. Trust me, if I were to, I would HAVE been by now.

There is no teaching in all of Christendom that we should kill someone, self defense or not. If we are supposed to kill someone (as in the OT), are we supposed to slaughter animals for sacrifice as well?

 

[OCC]

Nomadswife, at least you are honest with your thoughts. You aren't being "Rambo".

I do have to say though, that there are many times in life that the majority get the short end of the stick because of some jerk who screws it up for everyone. I'd rather nobody had guns and then I would not have to worry about some lunatic shooting me for walking down the street.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by Pickerel:
You have proof positive that none of them resisted? I am not condemning the man who gives his life for Christ anymore than I condemn the man who has to take a life(maybe even lay down his life) so that others may live...!

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Only Christ Saves!

It says to lay down his life for his freinds, not kill for his friends. There is NO evidence of the first century Christians killing Roman soldiers.

Of course there is no proof that not a single one of them ever resisted, but check out the history. You will not find a gnag of sword yielding first century Christians taking up arms to fight off the persecutors. You find them doing waht Jesus said. rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great in your reward in heaven.

Here is more on Jesus response to persecution

1Peter 2v20-23 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by jshurley04:
I am not so worried about the state taking away my right to worship as I believe God would have me worship.

Really? You should be. When the political left simultaneously says things like "One's religion is a private matter", "Religion is for home and church", "Gun ownership should be restricted from law abiding citizens", and then says that the government has a stake in ensuring the acceptance of alternative lifestyles or other moral choices... you should be worried.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by King James:
Christian policemen and Christian soldiers, yes.

This is the antithesis of the American ideal of rights, liberties, and self governance. Our founders determined, and rightly so, that those vigilantes were probably more honorable and trustworthy than politicians and those who enforce their bidding.

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jshurley04:
I am not so worried about the state taking away my right to worship as I believe God would have me worship.

Really? You should be. When the political left simultaneously says things like "One's religion is a private matter", "Religion is for home and church", "Gun ownership should be restricted from law abiding citizens", and then says that the government has a stake in ensuring the acceptance of alternative lifestyles or other moral choices... you should be worried. </font>[/QUOTE]Why worry? That's the way we were told the world is going to go and that's the way the world is going. One's religion is a private matter...unless you believe the government can legislate that all people be Christians...or at least act like Christians to make us happy?

 

[RTG]

In light of some of these statements,are we being honest with ourselves about those who fled england in the name of religious persecution,faught a war and founded a country,and claimed it was under God?

 

[OCC]

Yes, Christian policemen and Christian soldiers. Christian vigilante men, no.

 

[mozier]

At this time, I do not see how the federal government could possibly persecute christians to the point of guns and violence without violating the terms of the first amendment. And if the government still gets around that, then that is why there is a second amendment.

One may rejoice in being persecuted, but that doesn't mean that we willfully turn ourselves in, either. Not even the Christians during the times of persecution willfully and gladly walked to the colisseum and threw themselves to the lions.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by King James:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jshurley04:
I am not so worried about the state taking away my right to worship as I believe God would have me worship.

Really? You should be. When the political left simultaneously says things like "One's religion is a private matter", "Religion is for home and church", "Gun ownership should be restricted from law abiding citizens", and then says that the government has a stake in ensuring the acceptance of alternative lifestyles or other moral choices... you should be worried. </font>[/QUOTE]Why worry? That's the way we were told the world is going to go and that's the way the world is going.</font>[/QUOTE] Please cite scripture that we are supposed to be fatalists.

One's religion is a private matter

No it isn't. Not biblically and not according to any legitimate reading of human rights. Religion is a matter of expression that has just as much place in the public as the traffic cop.

...unless you believe the government can legislate that all people be Christians

Nope. Neither should they tell people how or where they can express their sincerely held religious beliefs. Nor should they attempt to prevent evangelism.

...or at least act like Christians to make us happy?

Government should stay out of the way and enforce laws designed to protect the God given rights and liberties of all citizens. That was the design of our country. That made us great. And the absence of it is leading to our downfall.

A genuinely free society is self-correcting. Lazy people become examples to others not to be lazy. In the welfare state, lazy people are examples to others to be lazy. In a free society, the moral and industrious are rewarded and set a positive example for others. In a welfare state, the successful are subject to punitive taxation since they "must have" taken advantage of someone.

In a free society, immoral behavior has consequences that serve as a deterent to others. In a secular state dominated society, people are rescued from the consequences of their choices if a politician thinks they can benefit from it.

The bottom line is that I trust my neighbors who all own guns more than I trust a government that may very well be run by a Howard Dean or Hillary Clinton in the future.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by mozier:
At this time, I do not see how the federal government could possibly persecute christians to the point of guns and violence without violating the terms of the first amendment. And if the government still gets around that, then that is why there is a second amendment.

Now more than ever... without the 2nd Amendment, all of our other rights and liberties are at the discretion of whoever happens to control the government.