Should Christians STRONGLY support the 2ND AMENDMENT?

[just-want-peace]

OTOH, we are the proverbial frog in a slowly heated pot right now... are rights aren't being seized just "progressively" eroded.

Boy, you nailed this one!!!!!

The latest USSC decision re: "property rights (?)" is a case in point!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by NomadsWife:
My personal opinion is this. One way or another criminals will always have guns. They'll steal what they can't buy. So why should we noncriminals give up our only protection? It's not like we are going out brandishing them and threatening people with them. We are using them to protect ourselves - and for those people who like to hunt, to hunt. So I think we should stand for our right to bear arms.

That's my opinion for what it's worth.

Besides... if God doesn't want us to have them, He'll let us know. I have learned God will let you know when you are doing something you shouldn't.

That what his word his for. Can we reconcile with Scripture Jesus' teaching to rejoice and be exceeding glad when we suffer persecution, to be willing to follow in Jesus' steps when it comes to persecution, and to pray for our persecutors with the "locked and loaded" mentality?

I've seen some opinions. I've seen Old Testament specific instructions used. I've seen "provide for you family" interpreted to mean kill someone who might take away your family's rights, but as yet no one has told me how we can respond to Jesus' instructions on persecution and how to respond.

The "take up the sword" question is worthy of looking into.

What I think I am most bothered by is the "locked and loaded", "pry my gun from my cold dead fingers", "get all the guns you can get metality." This appears to me as a violent mindset, and heart which almost looks forward to the prospect of killing the feds or anyone who might come to take away any one of our rights. Are you willing to kill someone who seeks to take away your freedom of speech? Are you willing to kill someone who seeks to come and close down your church? Would you be willing to kill someone who came to take away your Bible? Self-preservation and family protection are really a red herring here.

Can anyone use scripture to defend killing someone to protect supposed "rights" that we were granted by our Constitution, a man made document. Can anyone Biblicly defend the idea that we are born with any political rights?

I am concerned with the violent mindset in the body of Christ. Is there any record of this kind of violence in the early church? Remember what happened when the disciple cut off the soldier's ear to keep Jesus from being arrested? When Jesus said that His followers would be hauled before the courts, He did not say to kill them, He said that God would give them the words to say in court.

This is a very evocative issue. When we try to reconcile our "gut" feelings with the word of God it is not quite so simple.

 

[Bob Farnaby]

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


So what has this to do with Christians fighting the state? It reads like it is to have a gun to use in defending the state...

but then, as an Australian i've always been puzzled by the American obsession to have guns

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by Bob Farnaby:
Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


So what has this to do with Christians fighting the state? It reads like it is to have a gun to use in defending the state...

but then, as an Australian i've always been puzzled by the American obsession to have guns

I don't think you are far off Ben. Though I know the answer you will get.

 

[jshurley04]

I am not so worried about the state taking away my right to worship as I believe God would have me worship. I am however concerned that the thug down the street who wishes to invade my home and hurt my family and take away their sense of security. That is why I keep a number of fire arms within reach. If any of you know DFW here in Texas, you know that the home invasion robbery is the growing trend.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

There is still a mindset among conservative Christians in America, almost a "Go ahead, make my day" mentality about guns. It seems like many (not all of course) are almost looking for an excuse to use their guns to kill someone.

The Second Amendment was never intended to encourage that kind of thought.

 

[Mercury]

I pretty much agree with everything C4K has said in this thread.

Originally posted by buckster75:
so why did Jesus tell them to get a sword?

In order to fulfill Scripture:

"And he said to them, 'When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?' They said, 'Nothing.' He said to them, 'But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: "And he was numbered with the transgressors." For what is written about me has its fulfillment.' And they said, 'Look, Lord, here are two swords.' And he said to them, 'It is enough.' " (Luke 22:35-38)

If Jesus' intent had been to mount a real defence against anything more than a few wild animals, two swords would not have been enough, and Jesus would not have rebuked Peter when he used his sword. Jesus was satisfied that the disciples were armed enough to properly fulfill the prophecy, and I don't think this is a perpetual command that outlasts the particular situation in which it was given. If it is, either Jesus was using hyperbole to stress how they could no longer count on the generous hospitality of others, or it was literally referring to bearing a sword, but only to defend against natural dangers, such as wild animals. If Jesus intended this command to mean that the disciples should use swords to defend themselves in confrontations, then apparently none of them heeded this instruction, at least not in what is recorded in the New Testament.

[ September 27, 2005, 04:13 AM: Message edited by: Mercury ]

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Good point Merc!

 

[Mercury]

I did a sloppy job editing my last post, then ran out of edit time. The last sentence should read, "If Jesus intended this command to mean the disciples should use swords to defend against human opposition, then apparently none of them heeded this instruction after the resurrection, at least not in what is recorded in the New Testament."

 

[Bunyon]

C4K, I can understand your concerns in the age of "Christian Militas and such, but I don't consider them real Christians anyway. I hope real Christians don't have a "make my day attitude"- that would be crazy.

But I want to ask again. In extreme circumstances, such as in Sudan, do you leave open the option of using deadly force to prtect your family against the government?

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
-----"Mind you, I'm not putting down your country because you were born there. You ARE an American. But Jefferson was a traitor I believe. When people rebel against their native country and leave to start their own, doesn't that make them a traitor? If the south were to attempt that today, what would the north do? Let them? Or call them traitors and go to war with them? "

In the case of our founders, they were very careful to lay down their reasons. Basically they said, King George has ignored our rights that are guaranted in the Magna Carter and other places. And in edition he has taxed us unfairly yet deniged us a voice in the Govenment, "taxation without representation". They were saying that King George has forced us into servatude and denyed us our rights as citizens. They saw it as breaking with a tyrant who sought to deprive them and their children their God given rights and the rights they should have had a British subjects. They did not believe in treson and rebellion, which is why they went to so much trouble to explain the reasoning in their departure and also why they appealed to a higher power. In short they said the man had "certain inaliable rights". He is justified to rebel anytime the lower power seeks to deny him the rights guaranted by the ultimate power.

Besides, Canada has had its own rebellion. You are no longer apart of the British empire truly- are you? The difference is you were afforded peacful means and Britain did not send troops to stop you.

Even now the French speaking provencis seek to withdraw from the rest of Canada.

I'm familiar with the "taxation without representation" reason. But I thought they started their own country for religious freedom? I have another question: where in Scripture does it say we have certain inalienable rights? And if we do have certain inalienable rights then their should be no death penalty across the entire globe. Inalienable means exactly that...rights can't be taken away. That should apply to criminals as well. They have the right to life and should not be given the death penalty.

My country did not start out of rebellion though. We remained a British colony and only received the authority to make our own laws without British interference in 1982 I believe. And we did that without a war and without rebellion. Yes Quebec wants to leave...I'm very familiar with that. Do you think they should be allowed to? We are not part of the British empire because there is no longer one. We are part of the Commonwealth though.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
C4K, I can understand your concerns in the age of "Christian Militas and such, but I don't consider them real Christians anyway. I hope real Christians don't have a "make my day attitude"- that would be crazy.

But I want to ask again. In extreme circumstances, such as in Sudan, do you leave open the option of using deadly force to prtect your family against the government?

I don't know, but I do know what the word of God says.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Bob Farnaby:
So what has this to do with Christians fighting the state? It reads like it is to have a gun to use in defending the state...

As I explained way back on page one, the wording of the 2nd amendment is that the security of a free state (meaning the people, not the federal or state governments) is necessary (in light of the recent war fought against a mad tyrant who violated his own laws regarding the US Colonies) and is the right of the people (not the state of federal government) to keep their guns, and bear them if necessary against a repressive government.

The idea that a state's National Guard forces represent that "militia" is not only silly, out of context of the discussion in 1789, but was clarified by "Dukakis verses the United States" when Ronald Reagan called up Massachusetts NG troops and Dukakis objected. The Supreme Court said that the President had the right to call up, and use for national purposes, the troops of any state. Therefore, the state troops could not be used to defend the people from the federal government for they would be part of the federal military action against the people. QED

 

[Pickerel]

To say that we should never use a gun in defence of ourselves, families and others, is to label God a Murderer along with Moses, David, Samson Caleb, Joshua...!

After Giving the Ten Commandments to Israel what did God do? He told Israel to go and drive the People from their Land...(did they do it with sticks)? Or did God circumvent His own commandment(Do not kill) as some say, by ordering the Jews to kill the inhabitants of Cannan?

All I know is that Christian Policeman, Christian Soldiers,Christian Men are obligated by God Himself to defend the weak the oppressed and downtrodden...! If someone wants to walk into my Grandkids school and blow himself up along with my grandkids and other innocents there, if I am armed I will do EVERYTHING in my power to stop this individual...!

Clearly this is what the 2nd Ammendment was meant for...It is not what is in a persons hands that make him "evil" it is what's in a Persons "heart" that makes him evil...

Only Christ Saves!

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by Pickerel:
To say that we should never use a gun in defence of ourselves, families and others, is to label God a Murderer along with Moses, David, Samson Caleb, Joshua...!

After Giving the Ten Commandments to Israel what did God do? He told Israel to go and drive the People from their Land...(did they do it with sticks)? Or did God circumvent His own commandment(Do not kill) as some say, by ordering the Jews to kill the inhabitants of Cannan?

All I know is that Christian Policeman, Christian Soldiers,Christian Men are obligated by God Himself to defend the weak the oppressed and downtrodden...! If someone wants to walk into my Grandkids school and blow himself up along with my grandkids and other innocents there, if I am armed I will do EVERYTHING in my power to stop this individual...!

Clearly this is what the 2nd Ammendment was meant for...It is not what is in a persons hands that make him "evil" it is what's in a Persons "heart" that makes him evil...

Only Christ Saves!

Christian policemen and Christian soldiers, yes. Christian vigilante men, no. Yes, and a nation of people with evil hearts packin heat is a good thing? Understand, the 2nd Amendment doesn't distinguish between Christians and non-Christians. Do you want some guy to have the right to break into your house using a gun, so that he could provide for his family in the aftermath of a hurricane?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by Pickerel:
To say that we should never use a gun in defence of ourselves, families and others, is to label God a Murderer along with Moses, David, Samson Caleb, Joshua...!

After Giving the Ten Commandments to Israel what did God do? He told Israel to go and drive the People from their Land...(did they do it with sticks)?

I don't think they used guns .

I have a hard time to see the relevancy of OT conquest to Christians in the NT in the light of Christ's teaching mentioned in this thread.

 

[Pickerel]

Swords, Guns, Spears, Tomahawks...., a weapon is a weapon , if used as a weapon...God is UN-Changing His decrees and ordinances are from end to end...Is Jesus Christ God Incarnate? If so he posesses the same attributes as God...! God never said we should let ourselves be "slaughtered"...Taking a persons life must be done when there is no other recourse to do so!

Do not condemn the Christian Policeman who might have to take a life to save a life...Clearly this is the will of God!

Only Christ Saves!

 

[OCC]

I don't condemn the Christian policeman. He is given that authority by God, in Romans. Civilian men are not given that authority. I don't believe God wills for us to be vigilantes.

Yes, we should let ourselves be "slaughtered" if it is a result of persecution for our faith. I'm not saying it's easy and I would probably fight to defend myself. But we're talking about what's right and wrong...not what we would do. We don't always do what is right.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Where did I condemn policemen? I must have missed that.

They are part of the "sword" God put in place in Romans 13.

How do you explain Jesus's words above about praying for our persecutors and rejoicing in persecution?

 

[Pickerel]

Originally posted by King James:
I don't condemn the Christian policeman. He is given that authority by God, in Romans. Civilian men are not given that authority. I don't believe God wills for us to be vigilantes.

Yes, we should let ourselves be "slaughtered" if it is a result of persecution for our faith. I'm not saying it's easy and I would probably fight to defend myself. But we're talking about what's right and wrong...not what we would do. We don't always do what is right.

You as a "Christian" have a God Given duty to defend and stand up for others who are unable to do so! There is no teaching in all of Christendom that says we should let ourselves be slaughtered...!One may choose to lay down his life voluntarily to further the gospel and one may choose to take a life to save others(maybe even lay down his life) to save others...! Again tell Moses, David, Joshua, Caleb, Samson that they should of been let to be "Slaughtered"...

Only Christ Saves!