Single Predestination

[MB]

MB, you should realize that you are living on an island with your position that only people of Jewish lineage are or can be elect.
You ignore the covenants of promise and apply a very narrow understanding of how elect is applied.

The covenants? show how they apply to election of Gentiles?
When you find a verse that says God chose or elected the Gentiles I'll believe it. Calvinism implies so many things that just aren't proven by scripture but by Imagination. Such as predestination to Salvation. Not found in scripture. How about being saved in order to believe this is not in scripture. Regeneration before Salvation when it is Salvation. I am at peace with God I will never argue with Him.. Scripture clearly states that we are sanctified by faith.it is not a preparation.
MB

 

[37818]

I am in complete agreement with this.

Just clarifying - when you earlier said "That thinking disallows God's provisions to draw everyone and everyone is allowed to resist.", were you stating your belief or making a counter-argument using a contradiction? Because if "everyone is allowed to resist", then none will be saved, right?

I was stating my belief as I understand the word of God.

I am of the view point everyones name starts out in the book of life. And none of us start out seeking after God. When one overcomes through faith in God's Christ, one's name will then never be rmoved.

 

[Particular]

The covenants? show how they apply to election of Gentiles?
When you find a verse that says God chose or elected the Gentiles I'll believe it. Calvinism implies so many things that just aren't proven by scripture but by Imagination. Such as predestination to Salvation. Not found in scripture. How about being saved in order to believe this is not in scripture. Regeneration before Salvation when it is Salvation. I am at peace with God I will never argue with Him.. Scripture clearly states that we are sanctified by faith.it is not a preparation.
MB

My goodness, when do you think the term Gentile was coined? You are working extremely hard to avoid the fact that God chose Adam, God chose Able. God chose Seth. God chose Enoch. God chose Noah. God chose Abram. God chose... God chose... God chose. Everytime God chose it was election. Being Jewish was secondary. Posters have shown you verse after verse where non-Israelites were chosen in the Bible. Yet, here you are being as obstinate as ever while you make up rules about election that God never created.
So...show us where election is only for a person who can trace their blood line back to Jacob. I will await your evidence.

 

[Particular]

I was stating my belief as I understand the word of God.

I am of the view point everyones name starts out in the book of life. And none of us start out seeking after God. When one overcomes through faith in God's Christ, one's name will then never be rmoved.

That is Pelagianism.

 

[ivdavid]

If God gives to them the new birth, then they are of the elect.

Agreed - only the elect are birthed in the spirit. I think you rightly maintain a strict correlation only between being elect and being birthed in the spirit, but then incorrectly infer that the non-elect are consequently not at all worked upon by God to overcome their hardened hearts.

The resolution is in distinguishing between God's work of regenerating hearts and minds and God's work of birthing man in the spirit. While both occur in the elect, only the former (giving of a new heart) is applicable to the non-elect. I've provided examples from Scripture for such conditional mercy seen in a king saul and those falling away in 1Pet 2, Heb 6 and Heb 10.

How do you read these passages of people receiving knowledge of Christ and being enlightened to repentance once then falling away?

 

[37818]

That is Pelagianism.

That is a false accusation.

1 John 5:4, ". . . For whosoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. . . ."

Revelation 3:5, ". . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, . . ."

Psalms 69:28-29, ". . . Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book . . . ."

Exodus 32:33, ". . . And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. . . ."

Matthew 18:3, ". . . Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. . . ."

Revelation 20:15, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ."

[John 3:3-4; Mark 10:14-15]

1 John 2:2, ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."

Christ died for all the little children who are not yet of an age to choose so that their names start out in His book.

 

[Particular]

I was stating my belief as I understand the word of God.

I am of the view point everyones name starts out in the book of life. And none of us start out seeking after God. When one overcomes through faith in God's Christ, one's name will then never be rmoved.

That is a false accusation.

1 John 5:4, ". . . For whosoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. . . ."

Revelation 3:5, ". . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, . . ."

Psalms 69:28-29, ". . . Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book . . . ."

Exodus 32:33, ". . . And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. . . ."

Matthew 18:3, ". . . Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. . . ."

Revelation 20:15, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ."

[John 3:3-4; Mark 10:14-15]

1 John 2:2, ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."

Christ died for all the little children who are not yet of an age to choose so that their names start out in His book.

No... it's not a false accusation.

"It was the position of Pelagius that Adam’s sin affected Adam and only Adam. That is to say, as a result of Adam’s transgression there was no change wrought in the constituent nature of the human race. Man was born in a state of righteousness, and as one created in the image of God, he was created immutably so. Even though it was possible for him to sin, it was not possible for him to lose his basic human nature, which was capable always and everywhere to be obedient."
The Pelagian Controversy by R.C. Sproul

 

[Scott Downey]

Agreed - only the elect are birthed in the spirit. I think you rightly maintain a strict correlation only between being elect and being birthed in the spirit, but then incorrectly infer that the non-elect are consequently not at all worked upon by God to overcome their hardened hearts.

The resolution is in distinguishing between God's work of regenerating hearts and minds and God's work of birthing man in the spirit. While both occur in the elect, only the former (giving of a new heart) is applicable to the non-elect. I've provided examples from Scripture for such conditional mercy seen in a king saul and those falling away in 1Pet 2, Heb 6 and Heb 10.

How do you read these passages of people receiving knowledge of Christ and being enlightened to repentance once then falling away?

Surely they are not elect and saved and therefore wont persevere in the faith. Who enlightened them? Perhaps scripture? Maybe another believer? God did not change their heart, why would God waste His time on the reprobate when scripture says He gives them over. Refer Romans 1. God does not overcome hardened hearts by working on them like we might try and improve something as if we are working on a project of ours. God just gives to them the new heart and a new spirit, the old things are passed away, for them all things are new in the Spirit.

The example scripture gives of the jews continually resisting the Holy Spirit in the Old covenant ways shows that to be a fail.
And the OC has passed away and is obsoleted, God no longer does things that way anymore.

v20 is New Covenant way
v21 the Old Covenant way

Romans 10:20-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:
“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

21 But to Israel he says:
“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

 

[ivdavid]

I'd like to address each of your many points in separate posts...

why would God waste His time on the reprobate when scripture says He gives them over.

I'm simply drawing attention to this thought process particularly common in calvinism - the calvinist makes a value judgement on what is a waste of time and what isn't and then claims to uphold God's glory in declaring God would never do anything that the calvinist has deemed a waste of time. But has God Himself revealed it so in Scriptures? Did God say He would never show conditional mercy to the non-elect, never give them a new heart unto repentance and His Holy Spirit conditionally for a time until they choose to fall away? I read Him revealing just this in the Bible - again, how specifically does the calvinist read Heb 6:4-6 and 2Pet 2:1,20-22 among other such passages?

...the Old covenant ways shows that to be a fail.
And the OC has passed away and is obsoleted, God no longer does things that way anymore.

You've answered your earlier question with your own observation, haven't you? Why did God waste His time with an OC that would fail, why improve upon something like man does instead of instituting the better NC in the first place?

It's because God does show forth His glory in the face of human failure. God first provides a means of salvation quite genuinely from His end but which is dependent on the flesh to self-determine obedience. God knows the flesh (not specifically the law Rom 7:7-12, 8:3) would fail but still provides the OC under the law of works to prove to all mankind how the self-nature/flesh profits nothing and to make us all acknowledge that we ourselves are the cause of failure (Rom 3:19-20). Then He proceeds to show how different and perfect His ways are in the face of such utter human failure necessitating faith in Him under the NC law of faith.

Continuing...

 

[ivdavid]

....It's the same process in offering conditional salvation to the non-elect. God is not wasting time - He's demonstrating the contrasting features of what the self does vs what God Himself does. He knows all things - He's making us know these things too as in Rom 3:4. In fact this is the pattern of the grand scheme:

God does a with-me-without-me comparison - without God working in self-deterministic non-elect angels, God proves they inevitably fall from perfection whereas with God working in elect angels, overcoming their self, they are proven to be perfectly preserved from the fall. Having demonstrated what happens before the fall, God proceeds showing the same with-me-without-me comparison in the redemption of the creature after the fall.

Accordingly, non-elect man is genuinely provided means of salvation which he must self-determine to believe and obey. And God shows they inevitably remain fallen rejecting God's offer of redemption thereby proving the uselessness of the flesh. He proceeds demonstrating that with Him overcoming the self, He perfectly works out redemption in elect man - proving there is life only in Him, all unto His glory. Even the elect angels now look down on man to learn these lessons about the creature and its perfect God (1Pet 1:12).



Would you agree this is then one less hurdle into considering Single Predestination, now that God's glory is upheld with no wastage?

 

[ivdavid]

God does not overcome hardened hearts by working on them like we might try and improve something as if we are working on a project of ours. God just gives to them the new heart and a new spirit, the old things are passed away, for them all things are new in the Spirit.

I too do not believe in incremental softening of hearts - a new heart is completely an overhaul of the hardened heart. I think the difference is in you believing a regenerated heart can no longer again be hardened whereas I believe that's entirely possible.

Given that Adam was created with a good heart which was hardened by sin through his flesh, even when God resets the non-elect's hardened heart it would again reach its hardened state because of the same sinful flesh (2Pet 2:22, Luk 11:25-26). This proves the flesh profits absolutely nothing, even when all opportunities are given for redemption. This however is prevented by God working and preserving the elect by birthing them in the spirit, proving His ways alone give life unto His glory.

Who enlightened them? Perhaps scripture? Maybe another believer?

Do you honestly call that enlightening? If a hardened heart and blinded mind reads Scriptures and is exhorted by another believer, would you declare them enlightened or would you still define them hardened and blinded? Calvinism cannot have it both ways.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

"renew them again unto repentance" implies they have have been renewed to repentance once. "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" implies they have crucified to themselves the Son of God once before. It's a binary condition here - either they were truly renewed to repentance the first time or they weren't. If they hadn't truly repented before, then this v.6 is a false statement because it is still possible for them to be renewed to repentance by God's regenerative work. On the other hand, if they had truly repented before, then it proves a contradiction in calvinism to say that the non-elect have no regenerative work of God done in them. (Again, the calvinist must read regeneration as distinct from rebirth which is only for the elect.)

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Binary again - either these have truly received the knowledge of the truth (declared again in 2Pet 2:20) or they haven't received it. If they have not truly received the knowledge of the truth, then this v.26 is false because there still remains a sacrifice for sins. On the other hand, if they have truly received such knowledge, then contradiction in calvinism about the non-elect not being regeneratively worked upon by God.

Single Predestination avoids all these contradictions and upholds all parts of Scripture.

 

[Scott Downey]

I too do not believe in incremental softening of hearts - a new heart is completely an overhaul of the hardened heart. I think the difference is in you believing a regenerated heart can no longer again be hardened whereas I believe that's entirely possible.

Given that Adam was created with a good heart which was hardened by sin through his flesh, even when God resets the non-elect's hardened heart it would again reach its hardened state because of the same sinful flesh (2Pet 2:22, Luk 11:25-26). This proves the flesh profits absolutely nothing, even when all opportunities are given for redemption. This however is prevented by God working and preserving the elect by birthing them in the spirit, proving His ways alone give life unto His glory.


Do you honestly call that enlightening? If a hardened heart and blinded mind reads Scriptures and is exhorted by another believer, would you declare them enlightened or would you still define them hardened and blinded? Calvinism cannot have it both ways.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

"renew them again unto repentance" implies they have have been renewed to repentance once. "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" implies they have crucified to themselves the Son of God once before. It's a binary condition here - either they were truly renewed to repentance the first time or they weren't. If they hadn't truly repented before, then this v.6 is a false statement because it is still possible for them to be renewed to repentance by God's regenerative work. On the other hand, if they had truly repented before, then it proves a contradiction in calvinism to say that the non-elect have no regenerative work of God done in them. (Again, the calvinist must read regeneration as distinct from rebirth which is only for the elect.)

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Binary again - either these have truly received the knowledge of the truth (declared again in 2Pet 2:20) or they haven't received it. If they have not truly received the knowledge of the truth, then this v.26 is false because there still remains a sacrifice for sins. On the other hand, if they have truly received such knowledge, then contradiction in calvinism about the non-elect not being regeneratively worked upon by God.

Single Predestination avoids all these contradictions and upholds all parts of Scripture.

You must discern the separate parts that make up a born again person, they are the body, the soul - mind and the spirit.
As Paul said,

1 Thessalonians 5:23[ Blessing and Admonition ] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What is saved is the spirit that God has created, not the soul or the body, they are redeemed later by being transformed at the resurrection when Christ returns. The soul is like the mind, the understanding and can be associated with the flesh, and that soulish mind can be full of all sorts of errors about understanding God.

1 Corinthians 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The spirit though is perfected, once God gives to you the new heart, which is the new spirit God creates in you according to righteousness and holiness, it can not get any better than it is as He made it.
The justified, God has spiritually perfected. You must be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

In that it says, you have come means it is a reality right now, not some time in the future.

 

[37818]

"It was the position of Pelagius that Adam’s sin affected Adam and only Adam. . . .

Which is not my position. Which makes your accusation totally false.
You owe me an apology big time.

Before you accuse me again of anything. Quote the specific. And show that specific is false.

 

[MB]

My goodness, when do you think the term Gentile was coined? You are working extremely hard to avoid the fact that God chose Adam, God chose Able. God chose Seth. God chose Enoch. God chose Noah. God chose Abram. God chose... God chose... God chose. Everytime God chose it was election. Being Jewish was secondary. Posters have shown you verse after verse where non-Israelites were chosen in the Bible. Yet, here you are being as obstinate as ever while you make up rules about election that God never created.
So...show us where election is only for a person who can trace their blood line back to Jacob. I will await your evidence.

If so then why don't you show scripture to prove it. Your wrong here no one was elected before Jacob..And no one has ever shown this to me.
MB

 

[Particular]

Which is not my position. Which makes your accusation totally false.
You owe me an apology big time.

Before you accuse me again of anything. Quote the specific. And show that specific is false.

You stated:
"I am of the view point everyones name starts out in the book of life."

That is Pelagianism.

I owe you no apology. You may have your own unique twist, but the central core of your statement is Pelagianism.

 

[Particular]

If so then why don't you show scripture to prove it. Your wrong here no one was elected before Jacob..And no one has ever shown this to me.
MB

Show us that Abraham was not chosen by God. Chosen and elected is the same thing.

 

[37818]

You stated:
"I am of the view point everyones name starts out in the book of life."

That is Pelagianism.

Prove that the interpertation all names start out in the book of life is an denial of the sinful nature handed down from from Adam because of his sin.
No it is not. You friend are in error. And do not understand the word of God on the matter of names being in the book of life.

 

[MB]

You stated:
"I am of the view point everyones name starts out in the book of life."

That is Pelagianism.

I owe you no apology. You may have your own unique twist, but the central core of your statement is Pelagianism.

You don't know what you are talking about. You must not know what those scriptures actually are or you would have quoted them. All you do is accuse because you can't seem to find anything in scripture to back up the nonsense you post. It's the old Calvinist shuffle, when in doubt run.
MB

 

[Particular]

Prove that the interpertation all names start out in the book of life is an denial of the sinful nature handed down from from Adam because of his sin.
No it is not. You friend are in error. And do not understand the word of God on the matter of names being in the book of life.

I just showed you how it is Pelagian.
I cannot force you to see what you are blind to seeing.
Clearly you are offended that I see your position as Pelagian.

 

[37818]

I just showed you how it is Pelagian.
I cannot force you to see what you are blind to seeing.
Clearly you are offended that I see your position as Pelagian.

You did not show any such thing. Making a false assertion is not proof of anything.

Again prove the notion that eveyone's name starting out in the book of life is a denial of mankind having a sinful nature handed down from Adam. You cannot do that, because your assertion is false.

You must believe Jesus lied, and little children go to Hell too. (I do not beieve you do.)

Revelation 20:15, ". . . whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ."