Sola Scriptura

[Adonia]

I woke up after 3 or 4 hours. I'm getting old and can't seem to sleep all night long. I appreciate your willingness to help me. As I told Adonia, I have this need to truly understand how and why a person believes the way they do. I just require they reference scripture.

When I was struggling, as a teenager, to find a denomination I was frustrated that each had their own interpretations. I finally gave up, but when I returned to my quest I decided I would only accept someone's belief system if they could show me from the oldest and most reliable source. I believed and still do that authors who lived closer to the time when Jesus walked the earth are more reliable and less affected by political influences. To this day when given scripture to backup a position I go not only to my American Standard Bible (which is not like other translations but that's a long story) but to commentaries written by men with greater intellect than most other humans. Since I am Protestant those authors are coming from my point of view so I do need to get material from men like Pelagius, Arminius, Melanchthon, Wesley, and others.

Well I went on way too long. I need to try and get back to sleep. Thanks again.

Do you not think that the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Lutherans, or the Anglicans, all also rely on the Scriptures to ultimately sustain their doctrines? They all claim this and then the next thing we have to look at is the interpretation of them. In the end that is all any faith tradition has - interpretation. You believe you have the correct one, as do the others.

 

[loDebar]

You diminish The Word.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

You diminish The Word.

How can that which is given light by the Word diminish the Word, it is by the Word that all light is given.
The Beginning john 1:3-5
…3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.…

Does Mary possess His light was she made by Him? Does she let that light shine before all?

 

[OfLivingWaters]

A good bit of Scripture was added from Jesus' words-but not ALL of His words, of course. He likely spoke many millions of words over 33 years. However, He chose certain ones to become Scripture.

Jesus and the Beloved Apostle John 21:24-25
…24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who has written them down. And we know that his testimony is true. 25There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.

 

[HankD]

Jesus and the Beloved Apostle John 21:24-25
…24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who has written them down. And we know that his testimony is true. 25There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.

For starters:

The Hubble sees approximately 100 billion galaxies each of which averages 100 billion stars; each star has a name, each has a history.

Psalm 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

telleth the number - mispar - מִסְפָּר could be historical recounting

 

[OfLivingWaters]

For starters:

The Hubble sees approximately 100 billion galaxies each of which averages 100 billion stars; each star has a name, each has a history.

Psalm 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

telleth the number - mispar - מִסְפָּר could be historical recounting

And? Those billions of stars have come to be because of Christ's birth. She is the first of those stars, (as you are metaphorically referencing) , in the fullness of the Age of Christianity. No one is questioning that there are other stars, but not all stars have the same brightness, since you want to get all cosmic. She is a star whose brightness is that of one clothed by the Sun.
Another words some are dwarf stars ,some are blue and others burn white, and some yellow. Her brightness is of one who is HIGHLY FAVORED and was made first in the Christian Spirit. But thanks for pointing out all the stars which follow and come after her , she the first Riser in Christianity.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Romans 9:20-21
20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

She is DEFINITELY a vessel made for the MOST SPECIAL OCCASION .

 

[HankD]

And? Those billions of stars have come to be because of Christ's birth. She is the first of those stars, (as you are metaphorically referencing) , in the fullness of the Age of Christianity. No one is questioning that there are other stars, but not all stars have the same brightness, since you want to get all cosmic. She is a star whose brightness is that of one clothed by the Sun.
Another words some are dwarf stars ,some are blue and others burn white, and some yellow. Her brightness is of one who is HIGHLY FAVORED and was made first in the Christian Spirit. But thanks for pointing out all the stars which follow and come after her , she the first Riser in Christianity.

I am a former Catholic. I have no problem giving Mary and all the other saints respect, love and honor , however that love must stop short of dulia/latria (worship in disguise) or whatever name the Church of Rome assigns the adoration and worship of the saints.

My point of the passage psalms 147:4 is that 100 billion times 100 billion to give the history and names of each of the individual stars in the known universe would no doubt overrun planet earth and drain its inkwells dry. Then of course the same for individual people.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

I am a former Catholic. I have no problem giving Mary and all the other saints respect, love and honor , however that love must stop short of dulia/latria (worship in disguise) or whatever name the Church of Rome assigns the adoration and worship of the saints.

My point of the passage psalms 147:4 is that 100 billion times 100 billion to give the history and names of each of the individual stars in the known universe would no doubt overrun planet earth and drain its inkwells dry. Then of course the same for individual people.

Veneration which is esteem is for the Chosen Holy ones of the Lord. For the light within them is the light of Christ , and it is that light , in their instrumentality which is glorified. Some are fashioned as a drum , some a flute , piano ex.... All proclaim Him in the manner in which the potter fashioned them. We are to honor the saints .As for veneration or what you call dulia/latria that is what happens when you have been conformed to His image. For in Him the fullness of deity is. Do you know what this means?
The Unbelief of the Jews John 10:33-35
…33“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.” 34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—…

Demi lower case god's, within the one True God= fullness of deity. In Him are Saints that can be venerated . This is some meat, if you have not your teeth yet you will not be able to comprehend this...you may rather want to stone me. All glory to God from God, in God. We are who we are and the scriptures cannot be broken. He said it, it is so. We do not exalt ourselves it is God , our Christ who exalts us.
Christian Living 1Thessalonians 5:11-13
11Therefore encourage and build one another up, just as you are already doing. 12But we ask you, brothers, to acknowledge those who work diligently among you, who PRESIDE over you in the Lord and give you instruction. 13In love, hold them in highest regard because of their work. Live in peace with one another.…

Who presides over us and gives us instruction......well who do we quote from -in instruction?
Sola Scriptura!

 

[HankD]

Veneration which is esteem is for the Chosen Holy ones of the Lord. For the light within them is the light of Christ , and it is that light , in their instrumentality which is glorified. Some are fashioned as a drum , some a flute , piano ex.... All proclaim Him in the manner in which the potter fashioned them. We are to honor the saints .As for veneration or what you call dulia/latria that is what happens when you have been conformed to His image. For in Him the fullness of deity is. Do you know what this means?
The Unbelief of the Jews John 10:33-35
…33“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.” 34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—…

Demi lower case god's, within the one True God= fullness of deity. In Him are Saints that can be venerated . This is some meat, if you have not your teeth yet you will not be able to comprehend this...you may rather want to stone me. All glory to God from God, in God. We are who we are and the scriptures cannot be broken. He said it, it is so. We do not exalt ourselves it is God , our Christ who exalts us.
Christian Living 1Thessalonians 5:11-13
11Therefore encourage and build one another up, just as you are already doing. 12But we ask you, brothers, to acknowledge those who work diligently among you, who PRESIDE over you in the Lord and give you instruction. 13In love, hold them in highest regard because of their work. Live in peace with one another.…

Who presides over us and gives us instruction......well who do we quote from -in instruction?
Sola Scriptura!

Who said anything about stoning you?

Get over yourself.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Who said anything about stoning you?

Get over yourself.

First stone thrown!

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Who said anything about stoning you?

Get over yourself.

You could have said something like: Actually I get it or Oh I get it. You chose to respond like the Jews did toward Christ, did they not in essence tell Him to get over Himself? God is Good, he reveals the spirit in all men. Unfortunately for you the SCRIPTURES CAN NOT BE BROKEN regardless of what stones thrown.

 

[HankD]

First stone thrown!

Uh, that would be you.

 

[HankD]

You could have said something like: Actually I get it or Oh I get it. You chose to respond like the Jews did toward Christ, did they not in essence tell Him to get over Himself? God is Good, he reveals the spirit in all men. Unfortunately for you the SCRIPTURES CAN NOT BE BROKEN regardless of what stones thrown.

There you go again!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

First of all, my apologies for not replying sooner. I have been at a Christian conference for three days and too busy to access the internet. I see that the thread has gone on without me. However:

St. Athanasius is revered in the Catholic Church as he is one of the four great Eastern Doctors of the Church. (In his days, there was but one Universal Christian Church). He earned the title "The Father of Orthodoxy". His great claim to fame was fighting Arianism while holding true to Trinitarianism. He was Catholic through and through, recognizing the Pope, the "Bishop of Rome" as the successor of Peter, as the pre-eminent Bishop. Are you sure you want to be quoting this guy?

I think all true Christians honour Athanasius for his stand for the doctrine of the Trinity. I deny, however, that he was a Roman Catholic. I don't believe the term 'pope' was coined in his day.

Here's another from him. Again, he is writing about the Catholic/Universal faith tradition and it's teachings. It is in the context of the Church's teachings that we are to look at the Scriptures, not the Scripture's alone. So once again we see that St. Athanasius was Catholic to the core.

"[T]hat of what they now allege from the Gospels they certainly give an unsound interpretation, we may easily see, if we now consider the scope of that faith which we Christians hold, and using it as a rule, apply ourselves, as the Apostle teaches, to the reading of inspired Scripture. For Christ's enemies, being ignorant of this scope, have wandered from the way of truth...."
[6] Orationes contra Arianos 3:28 (A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:409

Well we can swap Athanasius quotes all day!
Here's one where he mentions 'apostolic tradition.'

'While the apostolic tradition teaches in the word of the blessed Peter, "Forasmuch then as Christ suffered for us in the flesh," and in what Paul writes, "Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ......"' (Letter 60, 'To Adelphius,' 6).

Do you see what he's doing? The 'apostolic tradition is nothing else but the Scriptures themselves! I think you will struggle to find in any of his writings, the idea that Athanasius believed in a separate 'apostolic tradition being passed down outside of the Scriptures to be held in equal authority with them. Certainly your examples above do not show it.

 

[loDebar]

H

How can that which is given light by the Word diminish the Word, it is by the Word that all light is given.
The Beginning john 1:3-5
…3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.…

Does Mary possess His light was she made by Him? Does she let that light shine before all?

He places precedence of written scripture over the Word, Jesus himself

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Do you not think that the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Lutherans, or the Anglicans, all also rely on the Scriptures to ultimately sustain their doctrines?

No I do not. I can speak with some authority of the Anglican Church and, apart from an evangelical remnant who I respect very much, it gives only the vaguest nod towards Scripture and then goes its own way. I would say that applies also to the Roman catholic Church and most of the Lutherans.

But here's a Scripture we can all agree on: 'Then His brothers and His mother came, an standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking you." But He answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or My brothers?"
And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers!" For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother"' (Mark 3:31-35).

 

[OfLivingWaters]

This will be a long read, not my fault though. There is unfortunately, a lot of False Protestant understanding of the scriptures. This will be a multiple post thing which includes answer to Martin Marprelate rehersed over stated Protestant interpretation of Mark 3:31-35 and the such.Also included is defense of the Rosary which I am sure Martin is against too.

First let me say, God is not a God of confusion. And scripture does not contradict itself. The Word can not express one thing concerning Mary then contradict itself and seem to discredit her. What is most correct , is men tend to misinterpret scripture to serve their own narrative . Now let's take each of your points with the BEAUTIFUL NOT CONTRADICTING SCRIPTURE ,GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT who is the only one who can guide in understanding.
All Scripture is God-Breathed 2Timothy 3:15-17

…15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for doctrine, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…

Since we know it is God breathed we know God is the author, it is profitable for doctrine meaning- for making doctrine based on the equation of the word, we derive at a sum.

Spiritual Wisdom 1Corinthians 2:12-14

…12We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.…

You will not be able to refute what I am going to share. Obviously one of us will be right, not both. You divide and mince the Word pinning it against itself ,I will show the TRUTH of the Word and there is NO contradiction in truth. I will use the Protestant's own victory cry against them- not as fully supporting ALL the RCC Denominational doctrine, for I know what is false in the RCC. The letters to the Churches address all the Christian churches which derived from the Hebrew. However, I will support the UNIVERSAL(meaning of catholic) TRUTH in the ORTHODOXY of the WORD and PROTEST against all that is false in the Protestant denomination. There is a Universal mindset in agreement among all those in heaven and on earth who love Mary and the TRUTH concerning HER that the Protestants reject. SOLA SCRIPTURA!

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Your first point: "The Rosary is an idol or image" ANSWER It is the image of the life of Christ and He is the fullness of Deity and His life is worthy of All praise.
Your 2nd point: The hail Mary: all are full of grace. ANSWER: All are full of grace in Christ this includes Mary who was Christ's first work in Christianity, she is- before all else were, and is the foundation in teaching. You nor any gentile is the foundation.The gentile does not come before the tree( TREE Hebrews) which the gentile is grafted into.
Full context of what was said to Mary and of Mary at the onset of the teaching in the New Covenant:
Luke 1;28
28The angel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
HIGHLY FAVORED, no missing that statement, it is pretty clear the angel is telling her God is giving her a VERY HIGH GRACE.
Mary Visits Elizabeth Luke 1:41-43

…41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?…
BLESSED AMONG WOMEN means all women.
Now concerning Luke 11, which you protestants love to use AGAINST the chosen Mother of Christ as though the scriptures contradict themselves.
Luke 11:27-28
27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Lets look at the wording for God is NOT a God of confusion. "YEA RATHER , BLESSED ARE THEY THAT HEAR THE WORD OF GOD , AND KEEP IT."( Rather ) is not used as against Mary( as rather than her) but rather used concerning (RATHER FOR) something else. Mary is Blessed rather because she HEARD THE WORD OF GOD AND KEEPS IT, She is the FIRST TO SAY YES to God. This is why she is BLESSED , not because of her womb or paps as the woman in the crowd says but because she obeyed the Word of the Lord. This is what makes anyone Blessed. But before anyone, she heard the Word and obeyed. She even before Elisabeth received the Holy Spirit. Elisabeth and John the baptist did not receive the Holy Spirit until the visitation. The woman in the crowd did fulfill the prophetic statement of Mary though for sure: "From hence forth all generations shall call me Blessed". And she is truly Blessed for her obedience to God.The generations which call her Blessed, and do not question that, are all the generations born again in Christ as Christian. This does not mean "born again" as to a sect of the Protestants, but born again as to what obviously happens to all believers in Christ. Christians do not call themselves born again, that is a give in of the faith.It is a state of all followers in Christ.


So, the Second witness to the exalting God the Father did for Mary ,Elisabeth called her-" Blessed among women", an obvious statement meaning all women. So we have established this through Sola Scriptura that Mary at the beginning of the New Covenant is : Highly favored because the Lord is with her and she is blessed AMONG women and her fruit (child) of her womb Jesus is Blessed.
Now, would this change as the New covenant becomes in fullness? Of course not. And I have addressed the TRUE meaning of Christ's words to the woman in the crowd. No mincing and dicing in true interpretation as you can see, SOLA SCRIPTURA!

 

[OfLivingWaters]

CONTINUING: Is she QUEEN OF HEAVEN? Well, is Christ a king? Queen of heaven does not mean she is over Christ but is a queen because of Christ for every great king of the scriptures has a queen mother. No different for Christ who is KING of kings and LORD of lords. She has to be a Queen because the scriptures reveal her has the ARK of the New Covenant, and that she was taken up to heaven with Christ at His ascension. We must do our homework in the Holy Spirit and then the scriptures unfold.

I will explain what the Ark of the New Covenant is and that those who honor Mary as such -especially during the End of the Age (end of the age of sin) will too be snatched up as she was. BIG SURPRISE COMING TO PROTESTANTS ,especially those who call themselves "BORN AGAIN"
Here's what I know SOLA SCRIPTURA!:
Where, O Death, is Your Victory? 1Corinthians 15:50-52
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…
AT THE LAST TRUMPET :Tekiah Gedolah. Is the greatest and is the voice of arch angel and the SHOUT of God. This is at the End of the Tribulation, hence Last Trumpet of the Trumpets.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.
FIRST THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE, (The Elect who are NOT to be martyred)- and are given special care, are the ones who will be transformed in a moment in a twinkling of and eye. This means
those who are chosen for this will experience an instant death and renewal of body and Paul reveals this as a mystery. Why? It is clear he is telling what will happen , so that is no mystery, the mystery he is revealing has already happened to the forerunner :
Psalm 132:7-9
…7Let us go to His dwelling place; let us worship at His footstool. 8Arise, O LORD, to Your resting place, You and the ARK of Your strength. 9May Your priests be clothed with righteousness, and Your saints shout for joy.…

Those chosen to be the Elect of the End of the Age of Sin will experience this too. The Lord took up with Him someone who is the ARK OF HIS STRENGTH, not His strength in giving to HIM, and not that which is made with human hands as the wooden Ark was, but is OF HIS STRENGTH. When The Lord went into the REST of His Father, where is the Lords Rest? Heaven! 'Sit here at My Right hand till I make your enemies your footstool". In the Psalm what or rather who was He taking up with Him? It is clear it was not the apostles because they had work to do. It is clear He did not take the Ark of the obsolete Covenant.
The New Covenant Hebrew 8:12-13
…12For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.” 13In speaking of a New Covenant,” He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
The New Covenant Ark does not age and disappear like a wooden Ark which would be consummated to the earth.

The Ark of Psalm 132: 7-9 is Mary who He took up with Him when He arose and ascended to His rest. That is how Paul knows that all of us will not sleep. And his prophecy is for the end time elect as well. We too are like the Ark of the New Covenant -MARY because we honor Mary as such. Mary is the first of the New Covenant to be snatched up . THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY IS TRUE or the DORMITION OF MARY as the ORTHODOX call it. It is proven in the prophetic utterance of David that the ARK was taken up with with Christ. And Paul proves that an obsolete covenant is NOT of His strength.
Mourning Turned to Joy Jeremiah 31:32-34

…32It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt—a covenant they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD, I will put My law in their minds and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 34No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity and will remember their sins no more.”…
It is clear in Jeremiah that the NEW COVENANT is written on the FLESH HEART AND MIND OF BELIEVERS this happened to MARY first of the NEW COVENANT. And PAUL too reiterates what Jeremiah said.
Romans 11:27
And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins."

2 Corinthians 3:3
It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

1 Thessalonians 4:9
Now about brotherly love, you do not need anyone to write to you, because you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds, and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.

Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My Laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds."

Mary is the ARK of the NEW covenant and she too is the THEOTOKOS = THE GOD BEARER for Christ is truly God.
Isaiah 9:6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
What does it say in Isaiah MIGHTY GOD EVERLASTING FATHER.

John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”