Do you think that healing still happens today? Didn't Jesus say that the things He did we would do also? Maybe this is a topic for a new thread.
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Speaking in Tongues: The Need for Caution
- Thread starter Deadworm
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Do you think that healing still happens today? Didn't Jesus say that the things He did we would do also? Maybe this is a topic for a new thread.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The gifts of healing are not available. But the prayer of faith heals the sick. We don't see amputated limbs being restored (Malchus' ear reattached by Jesus, etc.). Or headline news about the raising of the dead. Nothing of the like today when compared to the first century miracles.
Andrew Wommack claims his son was raised from the dead. Smith Wigglesworth claimed to have raised people from the dead.
Yea there are a lot of sheisters out there.
Yes, that is true. But I don't think all of them are. I am more certain about those who are than about those who are not, if that makes sense.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It's all hearsay. Any documentation?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Since I seem to have missed the verse that says that the 'charismata' (including Tongues) will cease with the death of the last Apostle, I will respect the intent of the OP by saving the debate on cessationism for "Babbling against Speaking in Tongues" and just comment here under continuationist assumptions about the topic "Speaking in Tongues: The Need for Caution".
As someone coming to Christianity from being raised Atheist and choosing Nihilism, I can tell you that the "babbling" of tongues is not purposeless. Let me state emphatically that I make this statement as someone who has never exhibited ANY of the charismata. I first encountered 'tongues' at a Catholic Charismatic Fellowship I was ... well, dragged to. It had the same effect on me, a radical unbeliever, that it had on the crowd in Acts 2. It drew my attention and it left me wondering if these people were really talking to God or just needed their Psych meds adjusted. Had I been dragged to a "proper" Baptist or Presbyterian service (or a Catholic Mass), I would have left just as certain that your so-called "god" was just a snipe hunt for an "invisible unicorn" as when I arrived.
I found this verse to be true: [1 Corinthians 14:22 NIV] "Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers."
I say all of this not to engage in the contuaitionist/cessationist debate, but to lay the groundwork for a personal observation based on decades in a Pentecostal church. The gift of tongues should be outward focused not inward focused. The 90% false manifestation is usually easily identified by the focus of the attention. Any action that seeks to draw all attention to the PERSON and elevate the human being in the eyes of other people ... is not of God. AS my (former Moravian) Pentecostal Pastor is fond of saying ... "God will share His glory with no man". The 10% of the charismata that is more likely to be genuine, will exhibit the character of the Holy Spirit and seek to draw all eyes to Christ, Crucified and Resurrected, and to bring good to others and glory to God. There are no Christian "superstars".
As someone coming to Christianity from being raised Atheist and choosing Nihilism, I can tell you that the "babbling" of tongues is not purposeless. Let me state emphatically that I make this statement as someone who has never exhibited ANY of the charismata. I first encountered 'tongues' at a Catholic Charismatic Fellowship I was ... well, dragged to. It had the same effect on me, a radical unbeliever, that it had on the crowd in Acts 2. It drew my attention and it left me wondering if these people were really talking to God or just needed their Psych meds adjusted. Had I been dragged to a "proper" Baptist or Presbyterian service (or a Catholic Mass), I would have left just as certain that your so-called "god" was just a snipe hunt for an "invisible unicorn" as when I arrived.
I found this verse to be true: [1 Corinthians 14:22 NIV] "Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers."
I say all of this not to engage in the contuaitionist/cessationist debate, but to lay the groundwork for a personal observation based on decades in a Pentecostal church. The gift of tongues should be outward focused not inward focused. The 90% false manifestation is usually easily identified by the focus of the attention. Any action that seeks to draw all attention to the PERSON and elevate the human being in the eyes of other people ... is not of God. AS my (former Moravian) Pentecostal Pastor is fond of saying ... "God will share His glory with no man". The 10% of the charismata that is more likely to be genuine, will exhibit the character of the Holy Spirit and seek to draw all eyes to Christ, Crucified and Resurrected, and to bring good to others and glory to God. There are no Christian "superstars".
I can't see why a minister would lie about his own son.
Excellent post.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
It is not reported in the news because like Creationism, any story "must be fake" or "has some scientific explanation". Even in the Bible, resurrections were not a common event, but I know of one resurrection in a church in Spring Hill, Florida that I attend. They still talk about it among themselves.
Mr. Newton died in the service and was determined to be dead by a Doctor, Hospice RN and an ER Trauma RN attending the service. The church thought he was ill and started to pray for his recovery while the medical people performed CPR. Paramedics arrived and attempted to revive him, but he was eventually pronounced dead at the scene and CPR stopped. While filling out the paperwork in the ambulance, after being dead for over an hour and 20 minutes after CPR stopped, Mr Newton sat up. He refused to go to the Hospital and returned to the service.
As Pentecostals, the people believe in a God that both answers prayers and still does miracles. As Pentecostals, they are accustomed to being mocked by outsiders. As Pentecostals ... they do not care if the world knows about it or believes it. God raised Mr Newton from the dead for the good of the Body of Christ (local) and God's Glory. That is what they care about!
[That is why I have told you what I am confident almost none will believe.]
Was there a death certificate issued?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If any miracles happen, it's not because any have the charismatic gifts today. We have the prayer of faith that heals. And we cast out demons in Jesus' name at times.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Do we know the son was actually dead?
The key word here would be "claimed"
As there have been few, if any, documented cases of true physical healings form the likes of Hinns, Cipelands, Wigglesworth of the world!
God can still do healings and ,iracles as he so wills them, but those are extraordinary events, not normal today, and NONE today have the gift to heal/do miracles as the Apostles didi!
The supernatrural sign gifts did cease with John, but God can still choose to intervene and heal, or do miracles, but that is up to Him, we cannot command nor dictate Him to do such, as WoF teaches!
Actually, not the Apostles themselves, but the Holy Spirit decided to grant tongues to the gentiles and Samartians as a sign to the Jews that Jesus was messiah for all now!
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
True, but it is important to realize scripture shows only the Two outpourings and an apostle's hands as the means of distributing the gifts. All believers have the Holy Spirit however.
It was the Holy Spirit Himself though that decided to grant the tongues , in order to show to the Jews that those non Jews were able to get saved by same Jesus!
Hmmmm....
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