Speaking in Tongues: The Need for Caution

[JonShaff]

Then youy should believe that sign gift died with John, as it was ceasing even during the life of paul Himself, as he could not heal Timothy, but could advise him to take some wine!

That is your philosophy.

The burden is on you to prove it. Otherwise Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4 are still in the Bible.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is your philosophy.

The burden is on you to prove it. Otherwise Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4 are still in the Bible.

Written to address a time when they were in operation though! God set up temporary guidelines for the transistion period in the Bible.

 

[JonShaff]

Written to address a time when they were in operation though! God set up temporary guidelines for the transistion period in the Bible.

Show us from Scripture. Otherwise, I believe the Plain teaching of Scripture. You sound like a Liberal Theologian. I believe Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4 are still True.

 

[Yeshua1]

Show us from Scripture. Otherwise, I believe the Plain teaching of Scripture. You sound like a Liberal Theologian. I believe Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4 are still True.

I believe that the need for the special Apostolic gifts ceased, as even in the end of paul days his healing power was removed from him, and author of Hebrews makes it seem as thougfh the Lord was no longer operating in supernatural ways to confirm the truth of the Gospel and of Jesus as Lord!

 

[JonShaff]

I believe that the need for the special Apostolic gifts ceased, as even in the end of paul days his healing power was removed from him, and author of Hebrews makes it seem as thougfh the Lord was no longer operating in supernatural ways to confirm the truth of the Gospel and of Jesus as Lord!

You misunderstand the purpose of Gifts--The Bible says they are For the Building up of the Body of Christ in Love. Read those chapters again Carefully, Especially Ephesians 4:

15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

(Eph. 3 speaks of a similar reality--Gifts help us know and experience the Love of Christ--
19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.)

1 Corinthians 12 is Followed up with "The Love Chapter"

Romans 12 states after the gifts, "Love without hypocrisy"

God uses the Gifts and Manifestations of the Holy Spirit to accomplish His ministry inside and outside of the Church.

 

[Yeshua1]

You misunderstand the purpose of Gifts--The Bible says they are For the Building up of the Body of Christ in Love. Read those chapters again Carefully, Especially Ephesians 4:

15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

(Eph. 3 speaks of a similar reality--Gifts help us know and experience the Love of Christ--
19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.)

1 Corinthians 12 is Followed up with "The Love Chapter"

Romans 12 states after the gifts, "Love without hypocrisy"

God uses the Gifts and Manifestations of the Holy Spirit to accomplish His ministry inside and outside of the Church.

Not all of the gifts listed are still for us today though, such as the signs and wonders giftings. Even those such as Dr Grudem who hold to prophecy for today have watered it down to meaning basically can be both true and wrong at same time!

 

[HankD]

• [Acts 20:7-12 NASB] 7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul [began] talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. 9 And there was a young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor and was picked up dead. 10 But Paul went down and fell upon him, and after embracing him, he said, "Do not be troubled, for his life is in him." 11 When he had gone [back] up and had broken the bread and eaten, he talked with them a long while until daybreak, and then left. 12 They took away the boy alive, and were greatly comforted.

I guess that means that if no one can produce a death certificate for Eutychus, then the event in Acts 20 didn't happen either.

[FYI: You can go research what paperwork Hernando County Fire-Rescue filed on the incident yourself it you want. I have no idea. I just met the man before he passed on (about 5 years later and quietly in his sleep) and know the Doctor, two nurses and dozens of people who were there.]

I was simply asking a question. I did not say I didn't believe the account.
But BTW The word of God is Eutychus death certificate in that it says he was "picked up dead" so you are wrong in that instance.

While it is true that I believe that "signs and wonders" to both Jews and Gentiles for a witness to the gospel message have ceased, I have on more than one occasion said that God heals and does "miraculous" things in answer to the prayers of His children

 

[Yeshua1]

I was simply asking a question. I did not say I didn't believe the account.
But BTW The word of God is Eutychus death certificate in that it says he was "picked up dead" so you are wrong in that instance.

While it is true that I believe that "signs and wonders" to both Jews and Gentiles for a witness to the gospel message have ceased, I have on more than one occasion said that God heals and does "miraculous" things in answer to the prayers of His children

That is the very position that I and many others who hold to sign gifts ceased to operate as a norm in the church hold with!

 

[JonShaff]

Not all of the gifts listed are still for us today though, such as the signs and wonders giftings. Even those such as Dr Grudem who hold to prophecy for today have watered it down to meaning basically can be both true and wrong at same time!

Once again, the Burden is still on you to prove it. I believe the Plain Teachings of Scripture.

 

[atpollard]

I was simply asking a question. I did not say I didn't believe the account.
But BTW The word of God is Eutychus death certificate in that it says he was "picked up dead" so you are wrong in that instance.

While it is true that I believe that "signs and wonders" to both Jews and Gentiles for a witness to the gospel message have ceased, I have on more than one occasion said that God heals and does "miraculous" things in answer to the prayers of His children

Sorry.
Among all of the argument that Gifts had ceased, I "heard" in your short comment something you did not "say". Please forgive me.

 

[Yeshua1]

Once again, the Burden is still on you to prove it. I believe the Plain Teachings of Scripture.

As do i, but I also believe that the sign gifts were operating in a special and unique time in hisory, the transistion time from old to new Covenant.

 

[1689Dave]

Since there is already a topic to discuss "cessationism" and this is not it! Let me respond to your post with an observation that is on the topic of "Charismata: What to watch out for".

"If any miracles happen" ... you are starting off on a wobbly foot. God is the same Yesterday, Today and Forever. "For I, the LORD, do not change" [Malachi 3:6]. There is no "IF". Some offer the advice along the lines of "fake it until you make it", but that is not how God DID things in the OT, that is not how Jesus DID things when he walked the earth, that is not how the Apostolic Letters instruct the Church to DO things ... there is no "new dispensation" in which God ceases to be God and calls us to celebrate the impotency of the Holy Spirit by living without the perceptible hand of a very real God still at work in His creation. Beware "fake it" and beware "God doesn't do miracles any more" ... or go and worship with Joel Osteen or Secular Humanists (you will find their 'god' more to your liking).

"We have the prayer of faith that heals." ... When has it ever been otherwise? If any Charismatic or Pentecostal or anyone of any 'cult' attempts to teach you about some inner power coming from you ... RUN AWAY! Elder Norbert would say that we think that we are "all that and a bag of chips", but he would go on to tell us that what we really needed to get deep down in our soul is "Do you know WHO you are?" You are not your gifts, or your job or even who you think you are. You are who GOD says you are. WE are Children of the King, with a right to approach the throne.

No Apostle ever healed without prayer and faith. All "charismata" are of God and not grown out of how special we are. Beware any teaching or group where the Glory is not going to man. If you would really have the POWER that was promised (Acts 1:8) then you should focus on doing the work that Jesus commanded (Matthew 28:18-20).

"And we cast out demons in Jesus' name at times." ... Again, when has it ever been otherwise? No Apostle ever claimed to cast out demons by any power other than "Jesus name" at any time. The only ones to make a claim contrary to that were the Pharisees who accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan. Let no one think or claim that any manifestation of any spiritual gift has as its source of power anything but God!

A secondary warning I would offer to my fellow continuationists (especially Charismatics and Pentecostals) is to use the word demonic with care. That there are evil spirits I have no doubt, but when we start ascribing an evil spirit of high blood pressure when a little more exercise and a lot fewer calories would go a long way ... well it cheapens the genuine by lumping it with the absurd.

The gifts came only through the two outpourings and through the hands of an apostle. Any other means is missing from scripture. No apostles = no gifts.

 

[atpollard]

As do i, but I also believe that the sign gifts were operating in a special and unique time in hisory, the transistion time from old to new Covenant.

As evidenced by the fact that the BODY ceased to be built up in Love after the Apostles and has followed a path of strife and division?

 

[HankD]

Sorry.
Among all of the argument that Gifts had ceased, I "heard" in your short comment something you did not "say". Please forgive me.

Of course.

AOBTW I am inclined to believe the account. The only thing missing in the account is that the brethren were praying for him (surely they were).

 

[atpollard]

The gifts came only through the two outpourings and through the hands of an apostle. Any other means is missing from scripture. No apostles = no gifts.

Corinthians ... FOUR CHAPTERS on something that is not really for the saints?

 

[1689Dave]

Corinthians ... FOUR CHAPTERS on something that is not really for the saints?

Not without an apostle to distribute the gifts.

“And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 8:18–19)

Also more if time allows.

 

[atpollard]

Of course.

AOBTW I am inclined to believe the account. The only thing missing in the account is that the brethren were praying for him (surely they were).

They are Pentecostals ... they pray for God to heal "unemplyment", "high-blood pressure" and "cancer" ... so the church just thought he was sick and were all praying like they meant it for God to heal his illness the whole hour. The pastor just stopped service to pray for him ... and they continued the service when he returned! Only the County Paramedics and the Medical people in the church knew that he actually died.

 

[1689Dave]

They are Pentecostals ... they pray for God to heal "unemplyment", "high-blood pressure" and "cancer" ... so the church just thought he was sick and were all praying like they meant it for God to heal his illness the whole hour. The pastor just stopped service to pray for him ... and they continued the service when he returned! Only the County Paramedics and the Medical people in the church knew that he actually died.

This happens frequently. But it is not like Jesus raising the dead after 4 days with decay setting in.

 

[HankD]

They are Pentecostals ... they pray for God to heal "unemplyment", "high-blood pressure" and "cancer" ... so the church just thought he was sick and were all praying like they meant it for God to heal his illness the whole hour. The pastor just stopped service to pray for him ... and they continued the service when he returned! Only the County Paramedics and the Medical people in the church knew that he actually died.

This is not a statement or inquiry of unbelief but I wonder if they are like Baptists (myself included) do they take medicines like for high blood pressure (assuming the individual has it), stroke prevention, etc? I prayed early on at its presentation but was not healed so I felt man's remedy would do until the Lord answered my prayer. I do however thank the Lord for medicine. I believe it is a universal gift of God to mankind.

 

[Yeshua1]

As evidenced by the fact that the BODY ceased to be built up in Love after the Apostles and has followed a path of strife and division?

No, as in the NT scriptures were now fully made and able to be circulated copies around, so that God was using them instead of signs and wonders to confirm the truth of Jesus as Lord!