Speaking in Tongues- What is it?

[Dr. Walter]

First, personal experience as well as personal opinion means absolutely nothing unless and except is conforms to God's Word. I have placed Biblical evidence before both of you and neither of you have even attempted to exegetically overthrow it.

I have been raised in a Pentecostal atmosphere as most of my family belongs to various groups. I have attended servies in various pentecostal churches. I have friends who are Penteocostal. I have yet to find a single case that does not violate the Scriptures or a single case that conforms to the Biblical characteristic of tongues.

God can heal, God can do anything but the revelatory gifts were peculiar to the office of the apostle (2 Cor. 12:12; Heb. 2:3-4) and were transferred to other believers by the Holy Spirit through the laying on of the hands of the apostles. You will notice that in the first five chapters of Acts NO BELIEVERS exercised these gifts but the Apostles. Not until after the apostles laid their hands upon others do we find others exercising such gifts (Acts 6). Paul wanted to come to Rome to impart such gifts after this manner (Rom. 1:11). When the apostles and those on whom they laid their hands died so did apostolic signs and wonders.

There is not a single solitary prophet (gift of prophecy) among a single denomination of Pentecostals who have not violated every Biblical test of a true prophet (Deut. 13:1-5; 18:18-20) and to fail that test but ONCE is proof of a false prophet. All Penteocostal prophets are false prophets which in turn revealse the "spirit" empowering them as a spirit that produces "lying" signs and wonders (2 Thes. 2:9).

I have as well. I’m been in crowded rooms both large and small with tongue-speaking. I have heard it in a number of places in the open air and with individuals praying in a “private prayer language” when they didn’t necessarily know I could hear them.


I’m assumed you actually meant to write that you haven’t heard of one single case of genuine gift of speaking in tongues in your experience since you believe it ended at the end of the first century.

My experience is likely very similar to yours, EXCEPT I am convinced I have witness at least one case of genuine tongues speaking with interpretation by a long-time close friend (who was also unconvinced of tongues until he realized he had the interpretation) and shared it with me. Furthermore, the interpretation was confirmed by an incident which occurred less than three minutes later on July 4, 1987 on Stewart Beach at Galveston Island, Texas.


You are assuming that the gift of healing is at the beck and call of the person with the gift instead of the person being the channel through which God does the healing according to His divine will.


But you are making this the norm instead of taking into account that even Jesus sometimes did not heal everyone. (Look at the beginning of John 8. Jesus walked past a number of people laying about the Pool of Siloam and only healed one.)

And then there’s the issue of the lack of faith (Matthew 13:58) which is a characteristic of our age (and many ages past) where people assume that divine healing, or other gifts, are not available to them.


For what it’s worth, my understanding of the sign gifts is that they are available to any believer as the need arises, according to the will of God. I have prayed (with another person) that someone who was very close to death in the emergency room of the hospital would recover. (This was in at the hospital in Torrington, Wyoming in March 1987.) The doctors quietly told the family that the woman would probably die from complete heart failure within the next 30 minutes and to gather the family quickly. The woman was unconscious, but her daughter begged us to pray for her, so we did. A few moments we left to minister to the gathering family in the waiting room. Within a few minutes, the woman was conscious and had fully recovered. They kept her for a few hours to check her out, but she was released that afternoon.

I did not heal her nor did the other person (the pastor of the church I was visiting, who was secretly involved in extensive immorality and not much later, indecency with a minor), but God restored the woman.


I see no evidence from scripture for your position and my experience demonstrates something else.

I must respectfully disagree.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Since when is speaking in tongues equal to the gospel. It is not. It is a sign for the unsaved Jew who rejected that sign (prophetically) and thus received judgment from God. Read 1Cor.14:21,22.
The gospel has always been commanded for one to be preached plainly in simple words that can be understood by all, never in other languages that cannot be understood. Paul said that he would rather speak in five words that could be understood than in 10,000 words of another language or in tongues. You deny the the very purpose of the gospel and thus, a misunderstanding of the Word of God.

The promise that you refer to in context is a promise made to the Jew. What tribe are you from?

How do you figure it's for the unsaved Jew when Paul speaks in tongues?

The gift of Tongues is a spiritual gift; "I would that ye all speak with tongues", says Paul He says that he himself speaks in tongues, and thank God for it, but he keeps it in order & in its right place.

 

[DHK]

How do you figure it's for the unsaved Jew when Paul speaks in tongues?

The gift of Tongues is a spiritual gift; "I would that ye all speak with tongues", says Paul He says that he himself speaks in tongues, and thank God for it, but he keeps it in order & in its right place.

Check the Greek grammar there. It is a sarcastic statement, and if you took it seriously as you are doing it contradicts the rest of Scripture. He thanks God that they don't all speak in tongues. You have to understand the sarcasm there.

Go back and look at Scripture:
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
--First of all check the Greek here. The definite article "the" does not exist. The translators put it in to make sense in the sentence. But it would make just as much sense to say "a body of Christ," which the church at Corinth was, and that is what Paul was describing. Every Bible-believing church is a body of Christ, and has its different members which Paul has just finished describing.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
--Now he lists these gifts in order of importance.
Note the order: First, secondarily, thirdly, after that, then, They are all listed in order of importance. The office of the Apostles is given first and "tongues" the least important of all the gifts is listed dead last.
There are no more apostles today. I hope we all can agree on that.
They were to seek to be prophets and teachers. Those were the most important gifts. In fact Paul spends an entire chapter why prophecy is to be sought over tongues and why tongues is not to be sought after.

1 Corinthians 12:29-30 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
--Look carefully at these rhetorical questions. Are all apostles? No, in context there were only 12 plus Paul.
Are all prophets? No, just some of them.
Are all teachers? No, just some of them.
Have all the gifts of healing? No, just a few of them.
Do all speak with tongues? No, just a few of them.
Not every one had the gift of tongues nor were they to be sought after.

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
--Greater than all the above spiritual gifts combined together is the gift of love so beautifully described in chapter 13 which Paul now launches into.

Then he comes to 13:8
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Prophecies shall fail; tongues shall cease; knowledge (that is revelatory knowledge) shall vanish away. When will this happen? It happened at the end of the first century. How do we know? There is a comparison in the chapter.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
--We know in part.
The part that the Corinthians knew was the revelation that they had--primarily the NT. One of the functions of the GIFT of prophecy was to give NT revelation that they had not yet received. The canon was not yet complete. It was complete at the end of the first century, the same time the gift of tongues ceased, and the gift of prophecy ceased.
We prophesy in part. They prophesied in part because they only knew in part. Now they would know more than just the OT. They would have NT revelation as well.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
In the Greek there is masculine, feminine, and neuter gender. The phrase "that which is perfect" is in neuter gender. It refers to the Word. It cannot refer to Christ, for he is masculine. The word perfect is simply an Old English word meaning "complete," which also the Greek bears out. When the Word is complete, then that which is in part (this time referring to sign gifts) shall be done away. Sign gifts passed away when the Word of God was completed. And that was at the end of the first century. They no longer needed them. All we need is in the Bible. We don't need signs any more. They were for a temporary period of time.

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
--Now look at the contrast.
There is faith, hope, and love. Why is love the greatest?
Faith is also temporary. And so is hope.
We walk by faith. But when Christ comes we will no longer need to walk by faith for we shall see him as he is. Thus faith will be done away.
We hope for the Coming of Christ. He is our Blessed Hope. When he comes we will no longer hope for him. Our hope will be completed in him, and hope will pass away. But love will last forever.
The sign gifts passed away at the end of the first century.
The gifts of faith and hope will pass away at the time of the coming of Christ.
Only love will endure forever.

 

[DHK]

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
--In the law it is written. This is a quote directly from Isaiah 28:11,12.
He says: I will speak to this people.
Who is THIS people? Who is Paul talking about?
In the law it is written... I will speak to this people. "This people" are the Jews. Tongues are a sign for the Jews. And when they hear people from other nations speaking words of praise of their God, they still will not believe. And that is what happened. If that happened judgment would come according to Isaiah 28. And it did.
Verse 22 is connected with verse 21 with the word "wherefore."
"Wherefore tongues are for a sign...to them that believe not," specifically the Jews as mentioned in verse 21. Therefore tongues are a sign to the unbelieving Jew. If you don't have any unbelieving Jews present while speaking in tongues it is not Scriptural and you are out of order. This is another purpose of tongues.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

DHK....I went over Corinthians in preceding pages....didnt you read it? BTW, are you reformed? I am & I hold to a covenant theology. I suspect your a Dispensationalist, right?

 

[glfredrick]

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
--In the law it is written. This is a quote directly from Isaiah 28:11,12.
He says: I will speak to this people.
Who is THIS people? Who is Paul talking about?
In the law it is written... I will speak to this people. "This people" are the Jews. Tongues are a sign for the Jews. And when they hear people from other nations speaking words of praise of their God, they still will not believe. And that is what happened. If that happened judgment would come according to Isaiah 28. And it did.
Verse 22 is connected with verse 21 with the word "wherefore."
"Wherefore tongues are for a sign...to them that believe not," specifically the Jews as mentioned in verse 21. Therefore tongues are a sign to the unbelieving Jew. If you don't have any unbelieving Jews present while speaking in tongues it is not Scriptural and you are out of order. This is another purpose of tongues.

Unless I'm mistaken, Paul wrote Corinthians as a corrective, not as advice in how to speak tongues. The Corinthian congregation had an over-realized eschatology and were using the spectacular spiritual gifts in sinful ways. Seems simple, but the context of the epistle set forth in the beginning paragraphs makes a world of difference in Paul's argument later.

 

[DHK]

Unless I'm mistaken, Paul wrote Corinthians as a corrective, not as advice in how to speak tongues. The Corinthian congregation had an over-realized eschatology and were using the spectacular spiritual gifts in sinful ways. Seems simple, but the context of the epistle set forth in the beginning paragraphs makes a world of difference in Paul's argument later.

I totally agree.

 

[DHK]

DHK....I went over Corinthians in preceding pages....didnt you read it? BTW, are you reformed? I am & I hold to a covenant theology. I suspect your a Dispensationalist, right?

That should have no bearing on 1Cor.12-14 being properly exegeted, and the correct meaning of those chapters being ascertained.

Paul did not discuss covenant theology. Here is what he said:

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That should have no bearing on 1Cor.12-14 being properly exegeted, and the correct meaning of those chapters being ascertained.

Paul did not discuss covenant theology. Here is what he said:

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

That is correct (Cor12:1) & how does that draw the conclusion that there are no more gifts of the Holy Spirit?

1 Corinthians 12:3 "wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed; and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

The apostle is telling you what then in these first verses of Scripture? Reason it out. When you are dealing with spiritual gifts, you must put this first.

JESUS IS LORD

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have seen, heard, and witnessed so-called speaking in tongues of this modern age. I have heard Pentecostal pastors describe the phenomena. But I have seen heard or heard of one case of the genuine gift of speaking in tongues in this age. It ceased by the end of the first century.

It is the same with the gift of healing which is far easier to demonstrate.
If anyone had the gift of healing then why don't they demonstrate it? Why don't they go up and down the corridors of the hospitals and heal those that are truly sick, or spend time in the ER's of variously hospitals and heal those that come in with broken arms and legs? They don't. They can't. They don't have the gift of healing.

Here is what they cannot do:
Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

All the cities round about Jerusalem brought their sick to Peter. All of them were healed no matter who was sick, and no matter what infirmity they had--broken bones, leprosy, whatever it may have been. They all were healed. There is no one on the earth today that can follow this pattern. If there is point him out. I am sure that we would have heard of this phenom by now. But no such person exists having such a gift. These gifts--the gift of healing, the gift of biblical tongues have ceased. There is no doubt about it.

Oh I see what your getting at here. I have personally not witnessed it nor gone to a Penecostal church. I also agree that no such person exists who claims power's (rather they come directly from the Holy Spirit so he can give & take away). In Peter's own testimony, 'Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?' He will not let himself be placed in the center, nor have attention focused on himself & proceeds to claim Jesus Christ. Peter does not give an address on gifts, he manifests the gift. No, you are to preach Christ! You are to preach what he does, how he sends the Spirit, and how the Spirit in turn may or may not give the gifts.

Even though he was graced with the ability to heal, Peter knew ....just as we should all know, you don't found a movement on gifts, because if you do you will find that you are saying very little about the Lord. And any preaching & teaching which does not keep the Lord central, vital and overruling everything is already wrong teaching. That kind of teaching always leads to trouble and eventually to disaster.

JESUS IS LORD

 

[DHK]

Even though he was graced with the ability to heal, Peter knew ....just as we should all know, you don't found a movement on gifts, because if you do you will find that you are saying very little about the Lord. And any preaching & teaching which does not keep the Lord central, vital and overruling everything is already wrong teaching. That kind of teaching always leads to trouble and eventually to disaster.

JESUS IS LORD

I am not talking about a man who can heal headaches and stomachaches.
I am not talking about a church that makes all kinds of fanciful claims that cannot be verified.
I am speaking of a man that has the same power that Peter had, properly called, the gift of healing.
If there were such a gift today, with the presence of our media, the whole world would know about it. Any man that could attract all the sick in Jerusalem and in all the cities surrounding Jerusalem and heal them all without exception has a gift, a very supernatural gift. There is no one alive today that has that gift. If there was it would be a sure guarantee that we would know about it. If there was a single cure for all cancer patients we would know about it. But there isn't even that. But one man who has a cure for all diseases?? There doesn't exist such a person. If there does, show me one.

The gift of healing has ceased on that one point alone.
Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Any such similar scene, or an even on an equal footing cannot be replicated today. Demonstrate that it can.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I also noticed you 2 are proponents of 1 Cor 13:8-11 in arguing that 'that which is perfect' is the giving of the NT Scriptures & once they were given 'that which is in part shall be done away' .... am I correct?

So according to your perspective, all this means is that until the Scriptures came knowledge was very partial & Paul is quite clearly saying here that all these partial supernatural manifestations belong to the realm of childish things which will vanish away when perfection & the fullness comes, and that did come when the NT cannon was completed. Am I correct up to this point?

So you conclude that after the coming of NT cannon, all these gifts were entirely withdrawn. Am I correct here as well?

I am positive Ive addressed this type of exposition before in this thread but for those who do not read through I will address it again:

You are saying that you & I who have the SCRIPTURE open before us, know more than the apostle Paul of Gods truth.

It means bluntly that we today are altogether superior to the early church and even the apostles themselves, including Paul!

It means we today are now in a position in which we know "face to face"that "we know, even as also we are known" by God because we have the Scriptures. This is exactly what the two of you are saying & it simply is not true.

The now & the then are not the time before & after scripture was given, because that puts us in a position entirely superior to the apostles & prophets who were the Christian churches foundation & on who's very work we have to rely. I have said this before & I will say it again this very view you uphold is inconsistent with Scripture, you define it as peculiar.....no not peculiar, your view is NONSENSE.

The Then is the glory everlasting.....It is only then that I shall know, even also I am known; for then we shall see him as he is. It will be direct & FACE TO FACE. 2 Cor 3:18 No longer as an image or a reflection, but direct, absolute, full of perfect knowledge.

 

[Matt Black]

What about miracles at places such as Lourdes?

 

[Dr. Walter]

What about miracles at places such as Lourdes?

1 Jn. 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Thes. 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

The difference between Satan's miracles and God's is not the authenticity of the miracle, power or sign as they both are very real.

The difference is indicated by the word "lying." Apostolic miralces were designed to CONFIRM TRUTH (Heb. 2:3-4) whereas Satan uses miracles, power and signs to CONFIRM ERROR.

Look at what those people are teaching in comparison with God's Word. If it is error then it is the spirit of error empowering the signs, miracles and wonders.

 

[Matt Black]

Fascinating. So, Satan heals today, but God doesn't?

 

[DHK]

I also noticed you 2 are proponents of 1 Cor 13:8-11 in arguing that 'that which is perfect' is the giving of the NT Scriptures & once they were given 'that which is in part shall be done away' .... am I correct?

That is correct, as long as "that which is in part" refers to sign gifts.

So according to your perspective, all this means is that until the Scriptures came knowledge was very partial & Paul is quite clearly saying here that all these partial supernatural manifestations belong to the realm of childish things which will vanish away when perfection & the fullness comes, and that did come when the NT cannon was completed. Am I correct up to this point?

"That which was in part" were simply sign gifts used for a temporary time. Why would anyone want to depend on an experience when we have the Word of God which endures forever.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
--This is Peter's conclusion after relating a wonderful experience he had (1:16-18). He had just related to them the experience where he saw Christ transfigured before them and the voice of God the Father coming out of heaven. What a wonderful experience that must have been. But his conclusion is in verse 19. We have something more sure, more certain than that experience, than any experience. We have the Word of God. Peter did not base his life on his experiences, but rather on the written Word of God, that Word that God the Holy Spirit led him to write.

So you conclude that after the coming of NT cannon, all these gifts were entirely withdrawn. Am I correct here as well?

Absolutely. There was no need for them.

I am positive Ive addressed this type of exposition before in this thread but for those who do not read through I will address it again:

You are saying that you & I who have the SCRIPTURE open before us, know more than the apostle Paul of Gods truth.

Did I ever say anything about the quantity of knowledge known. What has that got to do with the price of tea in China--another red herring that you are bringing into this discussion. We are not discussing quantity, that is who knows how much.
What we do know is that Paul died before John's writings (five books) and Jude's epistle, were ever written. He did not have the knowledge of those books.

It means bluntly that we today are altogether superior to the early church and even the apostles themselves, including Paul!

Does it? Hitler may have had superior intelligence than you--probably did. He was a very intelligent man. Does that make him a superior man?
Marx had a tremendous amount of knowledge. He probably knew more than you do. Does that make him superior to you? Your argument fails. They were only superior in the sense that Christ chose the apostles as building blocks upon the foundation that he laid, He Himself being the chief cornerstone.

It means we today are now in a position in which we know "face to face"that "we know, even as also we are known" by God because we have the Scriptures. This is exactly what the two of you are saying & it simply is not true.

The metaphor of a mirror is used elsewhere in the Bible.

James 1:23-25 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The mirror is God's Word, as it is here. It reflects back our image of ourselves, telling us who we really are. Paul did not have the entire Word of God, but looked forward to the day that he would have it. That day did not come in his lifetime.

The now & the then are not the time before & after scripture was given, because that puts us in a position entirely superior to the apostles & prophets who were the Christian churches foundation & on who's very work we have to rely. I have said this before & I will say it again this very view you uphold is inconsistent with Scripture, you define it as peculiar.....no not peculiar, your view is NONSENSE.

You are making no sense! This has nothing to do with superiority. It has to do with the completion of Scripture. According to your logic, Trophimus, Ananias, Sapphira, and any NT person were superior to Moses, David, and all the OT prophets because they had more Scripture. "You view is nonsense."

The Then is the glory everlasting.....It is only then that I shall know, even also I am known; for then we shall see him as he is. It will be direct & FACE TO FACE. 2 Cor 3:18 No longer as an image or a reflection, but direct, absolute, full of perfect knowledge.

The two verses have two different contexts.
The Bible is a mirror and does give us a reflection--of ourselves. It often is a rebuke to us.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Again DHK you are resisting the Holy Spirit & testifying against him. Why would you expect to be shown anything then? I guess you are like the Pharisees looking for a sign & wonders, "O you of little faith" Amazing, you have to be shown to believe....can I call you Tom?

 

[DHK]

E,W,&F,
Why not be honest as to who you are.
Your profile says that you go to Hackettstown Independent Baptist Church.
I know that such a church would never endorse the sign gifts as operative for today. Hackettstown is a town in New Jersey. On one post you said you lived in New York. You don't sound like a very honest person. I doubt that you are even a Baptist, let alone go to an Independent Baptist Church. Your beliefs would not line up with their statement of faith. Is this correct?

 

[DHK]

Again DHK you are resisting the Holy Spirit & testifying against him. Why would you expect to be shown anything then? I guess you are like the Pharisees looking for a sign & wonders, "O you of little faith"

When you can't refute the Scriptures I guess your only response is to attack the person. That is typical.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Fascinating. So, Satan heals today, but God doesn't?

No, both heal today. However, there is a difference between God healing you and healers and the gift of healing. God is not bound to human instrumentality in healing anyone. The sign gifts were temporal whereas God's power to heal remains constant.