Spiritual Death

[The Biblicist]

You are saying this means man must have at one time possessed a mythical "spiritual life" that was temporary (not "in Christ").

Jon, is the state of being "spiritual dead" due to sin? Is this form of deadness part of "death" that entered the world by one man's sin and was passed upon all men?

If not, then how can God justly subject us to this state of spiritual deadness from conception? If it does not originate with us, with Adam, with Adam's sin, with death that entered the world then how can we be justly subjected to it?

If it does originate with Adam and his sin, and is part of "death" that entered into the world because of his sin then did not it originate with Adam and his sin? If so, did not he experience spiritual death because prior to his sin there was no death which had relationship to sin. If he did not experience spiritual death when he sinned, then is he the only human being that became a sinner without being "spiritually dead"? If so, then he did not need rebirth since he had never been "dead in sin" and therefore is OUTSIDE of Christ and in hell today, UNLESS there is eternal life/salvation outside of Christ? Which is jon?

 

[Yeshua1]

Given what Scripture actually states, I wonder how Barcellos got enough material to write a book.

This is my problem with relying on tradition as if it were Scripture, @Iconoclast. I do not believe God gave us His Word in order to spark our imagination so that man would expound on Scripture and write an entire book about what Scripture gives in a very short revelation.

Paul got quite a bit of material from that fall, did he not?

 

[JonC]

JonC is.

Isn't bearing false witness still a sin under your tradition?

No. I have stated MANY times on this thread that I am not questioning that natural man is spiritually dead. I am saying spiritual death is not in Scripture (one is not "in Christ" today, "not in Christ" tomorrow", and back "in Christ" next week).

 

[Yeshua1]

Jon, is the state of being "spiritual dead" due to sin? Is this form of deadness part of "death" that entered the world by one man's sin and was passed upon all men?

If not, then how can God justly subject us to this state of spiritual deadness from conception? If it does not originate with us, with Adam, with Adam's sin, with death that entered the world then how can we be justly subjected to it?

If it does originate with Adam and his sin, and is part of "death" that entered into the world because of his sin then did not it originate with Adam and his sin? If so, did not he experience spiritual death because prior to his sin there was no death which had relationship to sin. If he did not experience spiritual death when he sinned, then is he the only human being that became a sinner without being "spiritually dead"? If so, then he did not need rebirth since he had never been "dead in sin" and therefore is OUTSIDE of Christ and in hell today, UNLESS there is eternal life/salvation outside of Christ? Which is jon?

His theology seems to be saying that we are born spiritual neutral, and all right with God until and unless we choose to start sinning, and Jesus avoided being affected not due to him being born in a sinless nature state, but due to Him never choosing to sin!

 

[JonC]

Jon, is the state of being "spiritual dead" due to sin? Is this form of deadness part of "death" that entered the world by one man's sin and was passed upon all men?

If not, then how can God justly subject us to this state of spiritual deadness from conception? If it does not originate with us, with Adam, with Adam's sin, with death that entered the world then how can we be justly subjected to it?

If it does originate with Adam and his sin, and is part of "death" that entered into the world because of his sin then did not it originate with Adam and his sin? If so, did not he experience spiritual death because prior to his sin there was no death which had relationship to sin. If he did not experience spiritual death when he sinned, then is he the only human being that became a sinner without being "spiritually dead"? If so, then he did not need rebirth since he had never been "dead in sin" and therefore is OUTSIDE of Christ and in hell today, UNLESS there is eternal life/salvation outside of Christ? Which is jon?

No. The state of being "spiritually dead" is due to not being "in Christ". Read your Bible.

 

[Iconoclast]

When did you experience spiritual death?

At conception as a descendant of Adam who died in the very day he rebelled, the Spiritual and physical death are the results of our federal head Adam
You suggest man is just flesh?
Where is the Spirit/soul?
If you will now try and suggest man has a spirit, what condition is it in? You have clarified nothing here.
You have not answered Biblicist or Reformed or anyone else on the condition and origin of the non flesh part of man. You are side stepping it.
Even those who would like to support you ideas are confused as to what you say. Later tonight I will compile your contradictory list of conflicting and confused thoughts. It is not both ways.

No one disputes spiritual life is in Christ. Do not deflect from the issue of your departure from the orthodox faith

 

[JonC]

His theology seems to be saying that we are born spiritual neutral, and all right with God until and unless we choose to start sinning, and Jesus avoided being affected not due to him being born in a sinless nature state, but due to Him never choosing to sin!

No. My view is we are born "flesh" without spiritual life.

Try again, camper .

 

[Yeshua1]

The caution is when people hold to certain traditions as if they were Scripture. That is what we see here.

Many men rightly applaud Calvinism, for example, for its logical consistency. It is a remarkably reasonable theological system. Each theory feeds into and from another. But this is also why it is the weakest of all theories. It is based on a theoretical construction of several philosophical ideas. It is, essentially, a house of cards.

What does this have to do with your theory here?

I’m glad you asked, Martin.

This extra-biblical notion (this idea that is reasoned out but not actually present in Scripture) is like a loose thread. We all have loose threads in our theology. These are debatable items, typically matters of interpretation. If you find one in error, simply pluck it off and toss it aside. But you have several of these threads woven into the fabric of your tradition. That’s a problem. They are foundational. Start pulling this thread and your tradition unravels.

And this is only one. As we have seen, your tradition holds several ideas that are humanly reasoned from Scripture but not actually present in Scripture. Again, the issue is that these theories (these exercises in human wisdom) are foundational to your tradition. That is an issue.

Even though I find your question a bit absurd, I will answer it. God did not make Adam sin. He created Adam and Adam sinned. Read your bible and you will find this is true.

That is NOT what we are discussing here, as Calvinists do not state God forced and caused Adam to sin against His will!
Sin and death passed on from Adam to all men, as ALL in Adam sinned against God due to the fall, and ONLY Jesus, due to being Virgin Born, bypassed that spiritual state!

 

[Yeshua1]

No. My view is we are born "flesh" without spiritual life.

Try again, camper .

We have no soul/spirit then? As in that aspect of Us is where we commune and related with and to God!

 

[JonC]

At conception as a descendant of Adam who died in the very day he rebelled, the Spiritual and physical death are the results of our federal head Adam
You suggest man is just flesh?
Where is the Spirit/soul?
If you will now try and suggest man has a spirit, what condition is it in? You have clarified nothing here.
You have not answered Biblicist or Reformed or anyone else on the condition and origin of the non flesh part of man. You are side stepping it.
Even those who would like to support you ideas are confused as to what you say. Later tonight I will compile your contradictory list of conflicting and confused thoughts. It is not both ways.

No one disputes spiritual life is in Christ. Do not deflect from the issue of your departure from the orthodox faith

Scripture says Adam was made flesh. Scripture does not say Adam possessed a trmporary "spiritual life".

At one time I would have explored this philosophy with you, but I am not fond of it any more. I choose Scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

At conception as a descendant of Adam who died in the very day he rebelled, the Spiritual and physical death are the results of our federal head Adam
You suggest man is just flesh?
Where is the Spirit/soul?
If you will now try and suggest man has a spirit, what condition is it in? You have clarified nothing here.
You have not answered Biblicist or Reformed or anyone else on the condition and origin of the non flesh part of man. You are side stepping it.
Even those who would like to support you ideas are confused as to what you say. Later tonight I will compile your contradictory list of conflicting and confused thoughts. It is not both ways.

No one disputes spiritual life is in Christ. Do not deflect from the issue of your departure from the orthodox faith

He does not seem to state that we are found guilty by God in Adam, but only when we choose to sin and rebel ourselves!

 

[Yeshua1]

Scripture says Adam was made flesh. Scripture does not say Adam possessed a trmporary "spiritual life".

At one time I would have explored this philosophy with you, but I am not fond of it any more. I choose Scripture.

We do also, its just that we are in agreement with the orthodox view here, and wonder how you get to your position, as most did not in church history who were reformed or Baptists?

 

[Yeshua1]

No. The state of being "spiritually dead" is due to not being "in Christ". Read your Bible.

We are born in Adam, correct?

 

[The Biblicist]

Spiritual dead versus Spiritual death

The argument is that because the terms "spiritual death" are not found in scripture therefore spiritual death is not found in scripture. However, are the words "spiritual dead" found in scripture? No! So the very same kind of inference to justify the terms "spiriual dead" is the same basis of inference we use to justify "spiritual death." So, you can't have it both ways. If that is the reason "spiritual death" is unbiblical then you must conclude "spiritual dead" is equally unbiblical as the very same argument you use to denounce "spiritual death" as unbiblical equally denounces "spiritual dead" as unbiblical.

So, if inference is used to justify "spiritual dead" then inference to justify "spiritual death" depends upon exactly the same basis where Biblical truths necessarily infer something even though it is not stated word for word in scripture.

There is a FAR GREATER Biblical basis to draw necessary inferences that "spiritual death" is Biblical than there is to deny it. Indeed, your denial is based wholly upon silence and upon spiritual life is found "in Christ" for those already spiritually dead. However, it is speculation to deny that prior to the existence of being spiritually dead there as a man which was not spiritually dead and did not need "spiritual life" in Christ because he was sinless. it is sepeculation to deny that sinless life the kind of life imparted directly by God which is without death altogether and therefore is a life in union and unity with God's own life. There is profound and plentiful scriptural bases to not only infer there was but that Adam experienced spiritual death when he sinned and the state of being "spiritually dead" is part and parcel with "death" that entered the world due to that sin and was passed upon all mankind and that is why no post-adamic man experiences spiritual death as a transition from life to death.

Finally to make a distintion between "dead" and "death" is absurd as both are inclusive of each other and the "death" that entered the world by one man's sin and was passed upon all men.

 

[The Biblicist]

No. The state of being "spiritually dead" is due to not being "in Christ". Read your Bible.

Who is to blame for that condition outside of Christ? Is God to blame? Are we to blame when it was our state from conception? Whose to blame for it? If it did not originate with Adam's sin nor part of "death" that entered the world due to his sin and not part of "death" which was PASSED down to us, then how did we get into that state and who is to blame? Can we be subjected to death in this form (condition) without just cause and a just basis?

 

[Yeshua1]

Who is to blame for that condition outside of Christ? Is God to blame? Are we to blame when it was our state from conception? Whose to blame for it? If it did not originate with Adam's sin nor part of "death" that entered the world due to his sin and not part of "death" which was PASSED down to us, then how did we get into that state and who is to blame? Can we be subjected to death in this form (condition) without just cause and a just basis?

The logical conclusion for that position would be God Himself!

 

[The Biblicist]

At one time I would have explored this philosophy with you, but I am not fond of it any more. I choose Scripture.

Jon, your only way out is either to admit you are wrong or deny that we are born in a spiritual dead condition. Whoops, I forgot, if you deny we are born in that condition then you must admit there is a point of experiencing that condition. You have no way out and you have no scripture that condemns our view but only silence and that spiritual life for spiritually dead is found "in Christ." Whoops, but was Adam spiritually dead? If so, then it was first experienced as spiritual death because he was not spiritually dead before he sinned was he? You have no way out and you really have no scripture at all.

 

[The Biblicist]

SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE

Jon and his compadres say their view is based on scriptures while ours is based on philosophy??? However, do they have even one scripture that denies spiritual death entered this world by one man's sin and passed upon all men as "death" is inclusive of "dead" is it not? No, they have no scripture.

What scripture do they have. They have scripture that in context demands spiritual life is found only in Christ for dead sinners. However, Adam was not created a dead sinner. Hence, they are forced to speculate and philosphize that what obviously is provided for DEAD in sin that Adam who was not dead in sin could not have spiritual life due to direct union with God prior to the fall. Pure inference based on a postive rather than a negative. Hence, they really do not have any scripture demanding that a sinless Adam did not have the LIFE OF GOD as part of the plural "lives" imparted to him. Nada, nothing!

So, their whole claim that their position stands on scriptures and ours on inferences and philosophying is simply FALSE

 

[HankD]

In response to the O/P RE: Spiritual Death before this thread is shut down.

Scripture presents the lost as being flesh and "spiritually dead" (Matt. 8) and they will experience a "second death" as hades and death are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20).

BUT Scripture never speaks of a "spiritual death". The lost do not experience a "spiritual death" because they were never "spiritually alive" to begin with.

So where does this idea of a "spiritual death" originate?

It comes from Romans 5:12.

We are born after the flesh in the state of spiritual death (separated from God) via the sin of Adam (Romans 5:12).

We die after the flesh and then judgement (The first death) - if our name is found in the Book of Life we enter into the joy of the Lord (no second death).

If our name is not found - this is the second death wherein the first death (via Adam) becomes our second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[JonShaff]

I'm not debating if people are spiritually dead. That is the default condition of humanity.

I'm merely stating that the term "spiritual death" is not in the Bible, nor do people experience "spiritual death". People that are unsaved (or unjustified, or unredeemed, or whatever phrase you like) are spiritually dead and cannot die a "spiritual death" because they were never spiritually alive.

This is the Crux of the matter.

When we say, "Let's Talk about the Fall of Man and...." all sorts of thoughts flood our mind. The Question is, How many of those thoughts have we developed because of our own personal study and how many of those thoughts were simply absorbed from other people telling us it is true. You may say that this should not be an issue because we have had plenty of years of church history to hash all this out, but so did the Jews and you see what Jesus dealt with when He was on earth. A sect did not even believe in the Resurrection.

I understand death is separation. We should all understand death is separation. But what @JonC is hashing out are the details that we know that are explicitly there. He is identifying that we assume and infer many things. And i believe, even if this is simply a spiritual exercise, he is holding people accountable to a higher accountability to Scripture then, say, simply regurgitating what others have said in the past--right, wrong or indifferent.

For instance--are we saying Adam was "regenerate" and Spiritually Alive (With Christ?) and then sin caused him to have his union broken with Christ thus making him spiritually dead? If that's the case, now that we are regenerate does that mean when we sin we die spiritually?