The Atonement: Which is The Bible's Teaching?

[Yeshua1]

Find one place where a bible verse actually mentions God's wrath on Jesus.


Gods wrath is mighty! God's wrath is Just! Because of Jesus, You won't Go through God's wrath!

God's wrath can suck a nickel through a straw.

You can get as grand as you want to get or like that link you have the people put made up quotes to pass for bible verses.

No where does it say God's wrath went on Jesus. Is it next to the part Jesus says God's wrath tickles?

There has always been the cross and then the Resurrection.

But now you guys want to add a FAKE EVENT not written in scripture.

Either Jesus took the wrath of God for your sins, or else you well have to!

 

[utilyan]

I gave you a link to it. Do you actually read posts before quoting them

I read that yesterday, from Got questions

I was expecting to hear your full take.


wiki:
hilasterion The mercy seat.

Yom kapur


Edward J. Kilmartin:

Sacrifice is not, in the first place, an activity of human beings directed to God and, in the second place, something that reaches its goal in the response of divine acceptance and bestowal of divine blessing on the cultic community. Rather, sacrifice in the New Testament understanding – and thus in its Christian understanding – is, in the first place, the self-offering of the Father in the gift of his Son, and in the second place the unique response of the Son in his humanity to the Father, and in the third place, the self-offering of believers in union with Christ by which they share in his covenant relationship with the Father.



Where is bible verse saying Wrath of God is on Jesus.



How would selfish minded people know anything about making Jesus suffer?

If I wanted to put the worst wrath on Jesus, do I hurt him or would I hurt those he cares for?


Which is going to put you in real anguish? Someone comes and beats you up, or someone comes and beats the one next to you?



God didn't punish Jesus, <----- What is going to echo through God can do what he wants, God didn't punish us, Wrath of God is great, God deserves to punish us. ect,ect. Fact remains God never punished Jesus.

 

[Revmitchell]

I read that yesterday, from Got questions

I was expecting to hear your full take.


wiki:
hilasterion The mercy seat.

Yom kapur


Edward J. Kilmartin:

Sacrifice is not, in the first place, an activity of human beings directed to God and, in the second place, something that reaches its goal in the response of divine acceptance and bestowal of divine blessing on the cultic community. Rather, sacrifice in the New Testament understanding – and thus in its Christian understanding – is, in the first place, the self-offering of the Father in the gift of his Son, and in the second place the unique response of the Son in his humanity to the Father, and in the third place, the self-offering of believers in union with Christ by which they share in his covenant relationship with the Father.



Where is bible verse saying Wrath of God is on Jesus.



How would selfish minded people know anything about making Jesus suffer?

If I wanted to put the worst wrath on Jesus, do I hurt him or would I hurt those he cares for?


Which is going to put you in real anguish? Someone comes and beats you up, or someone comes and beats the one next to you?



God didn't punish Jesus, <----- What is going to echo through God can do what he wants, God didn't punish us, Wrath of God is great, God deserves to punish us. ect,ect. Fact remains God never punished Jesus.

I'm sorry did you read the portion of scripture where it talks about Jesus on the cross?

 

[utilyan]

I'm embarrassed for you

Thank you buddy, Glad you care.

Its important that we don't make up rules not found in the bible.

If God's wrath fell a Jesus that would have been least two chapters long. No where not one verse not one lick.

 

[utilyan]

I'm sorry did you read the portion of scripture where it talks about Jesus on the cross?

This here?:

In the first three chapters of Romans, Paul makes the argument that everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, is under the condemnation of God and deserving of His wrath (Romans 1:18). Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All of us deserve His wrath and punishment. God in His infinite grace and mercy has provided a way that His wrath can be appeased and we can be reconciled to Him. That way is through the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus Christ, as the payment for sins. It is through faith in Jesus Christ as God’s perfect sacrifice that we can be reconciled to God. It is only because of Christ’s death on the cross and His resurrection on the third day that a lost sinner deserving of hell can be reconciled to a holy God. The wonderful truth of the gospel is that Christians are saved from God’s wrath and reconciled to God not because “we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:10).
=====

Nothing about God's wrath on Jesus. Although "got questions" do believe in penal substitution.

 

[Revmitchell]

This here?:

In the first three chapters of Romans, Paul makes the argument that everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, is under the condemnation of God and deserving of His wrath (Romans 1:18). Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All of us deserve His wrath and punishment. God in His infinite grace and mercy has provided a way that His wrath can be appeased and we can be reconciled to Him. That way is through the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus Christ, as the payment for sins. It is through faith in Jesus Christ as God’s perfect sacrifice that we can be reconciled to God. It is only because of Christ’s death on the cross and His resurrection on the third day that a lost sinner deserving of hell can be reconciled to a holy God. The wonderful truth of the gospel is that Christians are saved from God’s wrath and reconciled to God not because “we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:10).
=====

Nothing about God's wrath on Jesus. Although "got questions" do believe in penal substitution.

Every bit of that is about God's wrath on Jesus are you even reading what you post.

 

[MennoSota]

Every bit of that is about God's wrath on Jesus are you even reading what you post.

Here's what utilyan does...

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Bible verse. That God let his wrath out on Jesus, Or you are a LIAR.

I'm new here, but I have read the rules. I don't think insinuating that some one is a Liar is called Christian speech.

Colossians 4:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. 6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

 

[Revmitchell]

Atonement Questions

Is the atonement substitutionary? This question assumes a common understanding of the term “atonement.” In English, the word simply means “a making at one” and theologically refers to the process of bringing someone estranged from God into unity with God. Using this understanding of the term, then Christ’s death on the cross did not bring anyone into unity with God, but instead enabled God to bring those of His choosing into unity with Himself. When God spiritually places someone “in Christ” they are united with Christ, and they are justified, made holy and blameless in Christ. Thus if we use the term correctly, then atonement refers to God placing us spiritually in Christ.

Did Jesus take the penalty of sin for every person who has ever lived, is living, and ever will live? No, Jesus took away the penalty of sin for anyone spiritually placed “in Him.” We are not made holy or blameless until we are “in Christ.”

If so, what was God's intention in laying the sin of every person on Christ? Since Jesus did not take the penalty of sin for every person who ever lived, the question is moot. God’s intention in accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as the propitiation for the whole world was to reconcile mankind to Himself through Jesus Christ. Thus anyone spiritually placed “in Christ” receives the reconciliation provided by the propitiation of Christ’s sacrifice.

Was it His purpose to make men savable, or to actually atone for their sins? God’s purpose was to provide the opportunity for reconciliation to all mankind and to reconcile those who God places in Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness.

And if those sins have been borne by Christ and the punishment due them laid upon Him, upon what basis will those same sins be punished in those who reject Him? Again, the question rests on a false premise, and thus presents a false dichotomy. God accepted Christ’s sacrifice as the propitiation for the whole world. One facet of this truth is explained in Hebrews 9:15. Christ’s death was for the redemption of the transgressions committed under the Old Covenant, and therefore those who have been called under the Old Covenant may receive the promise of eternal life under the New Covenant in the blood of Christ. Since the New Covenant was inaugurated at the death of Christ on the cross, the Old Testament saints were not made perfect until they were covered by Christ’s propitiation, and therefore allowed to enter heaven – see Hebrews 11:39-40.

Did Jesus, as the faithful High Priest, sacrifice for those who will never be saved? Yes, see Hebrews 9:11-12. Christ entered the spiritual tabernacle, the kingdom of God, after He died, arose and ascended, where He intercedes on behalf of those who have been spiritually placed “in Him.” But He entered the tabernacle as High Priest “once for all” such that anyone placed in Christ has Christ as his or her High Priest, because His sacrifice of Himself obtained eternal redemption for anyone who is spiritually placed in Christ. So in the sense of sacrificing, He acted as High Priest for everyone, but in the sense of interceding, He acts for those who are “in Christ,” for those who have received the reconciliation provided by His sacrifice.

What is the nature of this failed intercession? Christ’s sacrifice on behalf of all mankind did not fail, and His intercession on behalf of those placed in Him does not fail, He is God Almighty.

And is it true that Reformed theologians misconstrue the scope and intention of Christ’s atonement? Yes, they combine Christ’s obtainment of “eternal redemption” once for all on the cross, with receiving that reconciliation, putting the cart before the horse and denying that Christ died as a ransom for all mankind.

Who did you copy this from?

 

[Yeshua1]

This here?:

In the first three chapters of Romans, Paul makes the argument that everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, is under the condemnation of God and deserving of His wrath (Romans 1:18). Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All of us deserve His wrath and punishment. God in His infinite grace and mercy has provided a way that His wrath can be appeased and we can be reconciled to Him. That way is through the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus Christ, as the payment for sins. It is through faith in Jesus Christ as God’s perfect sacrifice that we can be reconciled to God. It is only because of Christ’s death on the cross and His resurrection on the third day that a lost sinner deserving of hell can be reconciled to a holy God. The wonderful truth of the gospel is that Christians are saved from God’s wrath and reconciled to God not because “we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:10).
=====

Nothing about God's wrath on Jesus. Although "got questions" do believe in penal substitution.

God treated jesus on the Cross exactly the same fashion all lost will be when judged and condemned...

 

[utilyan]

God treated jesus on the Cross exactly the same fashion all lost will be when judged and condemned...

There is nothing in the bible text that says that. You want to argue Jesus is eternally separated from God? That the trinity is not eternal and missed a beat?

I keep asking you folks for bible text and you got nothing.

Catching on fire is a bad thing, If a fireman saves you from fire nothing in the rules says he has to toast for you.

Wrath of God on you is a bad thing, If Jesus saves you from fire that doesn't mean he got toast himself.


What you guys are doing is called READING INTO THE TEXT. pushing your philosophy into the bible.

NOTHING in the bible simply says God let his wrath out on Jesus. SHOW ME THE VERSE!

You can't because its not there. You won't because its not there. Show it to me.

 

[utilyan]

I'm new here, but I have read the rules. I don't think insinuating that some one is a Liar is called Christian speech.

Colossians 4:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. 6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

I believe he is going to tell me the truth. I believe he is going to show me the bible verse where it says God let out all his anger and wrath and tortured Jesus Christ. Does that fly?

 

[Yeshua1]

There is nothing in the bible text that says that. You want to argue Jesus is eternally separated from God? That the trinity is not eternal and missed a beat?

I keep asking you folks for bible text and you got nothing.

Catching on fire is a bad thing, If a fireman saves you from fire nothing in the rules says he has to toast for you.

Wrath of God on you is a bad thing, If Jesus saves you from fire that doesn't mean he got toast himself.


What you guys are doing is called READING INTO THE TEXT. pushing your philosophy into the bible.

NOTHING in the bible simply says God let his wrath out on Jesus. SHOW ME THE VERSE!

You can't because its not there. You won't because its not there. Show it to me.

Jesus screamed out that God had forsaken Him, and he had, during those 3 years he was experiencing the same things all lost sinners will, but His was just for 3 hours, and afterwards, He was once again fully one with his father!

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe he is going to tell me the truth. I believe he is going to show me the bible verse where it says God let out all his anger and wrath and tortured Jesus Christ. Does that fly?

It does, see Isaiah 53, the suffering Servant of the Lord!

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

I believe he is going to tell me the truth. I believe he is going to show me the bible verse where it says God let out all his anger and wrath and tortured Jesus Christ. Does that fly?

I'm not a moderator here. I mod a different Christian board. Their rules are only slightly different.

What is allowed here and other boards is completely up to those who manage it. I have no criticisms of this board.

My experience in posting tells me that when a Christian (or anyone) has to resort to name-calling, their position is bankrupt. Scripture speaks to our behavior with other believers.

James 1:26King James Version (KJV)

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Colossians 4:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. 6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

Unbelievers may be watching. What kind of message are we sending them?

 

[Calv1]

Recapitulation - Irenaeus (ca. 130-202) Christ recapitulated in himself all the stages of human life that related to sin. In this way he reversed the course on which Adam, by his sin, started humanity.

Ransom to Satan - Origen (ca. 185-254) Christ's death was a ransom paid to Satan for claims he had on man.

Satisfaction - Anselm (1033-1109) Christ's death rendered satisfaction to God's honor.

Substitutionary (Reformers, from Anselm ) that Jesus Christ suffered crucifixion as a substitute for human sin, satisfying God's just wrath against man's transgression due to Christ's infinite merit.

Moral Influence - Abelard (1079-1142) Christ's death was a manifestation of God's love. The suffering love of Christ awakens a responsive love in sinners.

Example - Socinus (1539-1604) Christ's death did not atone for sin. By his teaching in life and
example in death, Christ brought salvation to man.

Governmental - Hugo Grotius (1583-1645) Sin disrupted God's government. By his death Christ demonstrated the high estimate God placed on his law and government.

Mystical - Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768-1834) Christ's death exercises some influence to change man. Christ's unbroken unity with God enabled him to bring a potential mystical influence for good to man through his death.

Vicarious Repentance - McLeod Campbell (1800-1872) By his death Christ offered to God a perfect and vicarious repentance which man could not perform but from which he benefits.

There are two main points to salvation, both accomplished by God Himself, and we the benefactors.

Christ lived a righteous life on our behalf. This was a NECESSITY. Christ could have been born, God could have had Him stuck down by Herod, and hey an atonement, but that's not what happened, Isaiah 53 pretty much explains the gospel, which is remarkable, no wonder it's called the 5th Gospel. When John said "It is you who should be baptizing me", Jesus said "No it must be so that I FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS", what? Christ had to fulfill all righteousness, for Him? No, FOR US.

Two, Christ died for the elects sin. "I lay down my life for my sheep". "I pray NOT FOR THE WORLD, but for those you gave me". On the cross, the great fulfillment of all the glorious OT prophecies, (Sorry getting excited), God placed the sins of the elect on Christ, which seems unjust except when we understand Jesus volunteered to take the punishment for our sins. "But wait one objects, our punishment is eternal, Jesus suffered some three hours under the Fathers wrath". True, but He IS ETERNAL, 3 hours was sufficient for Him to feel the grief of each and everyone of our sins.

If Jesus merely removed our sins, we'd be back to square one, like Adam, innocent without sin, but Paul EXHAUSTS THE SUBJECT in Romans, we, in addition to have no sins to our account, are given a "Foreign Righteousness", God applies through the Holy Spirit into each believer Christs righteousness.

What now? Now, for me, all my sins are paid for, AND Christs righteous life is imputed, accounted to me. It's called the "Great Exchange", our sins to Christ, His righteousness to us, if you are a believer. If you believe not your sin remains, and you will be judged on that great day.

Look at my moniker and read it, so true and GLORIOUS! Man, on the side of the devil, living in rebellion to God, yet while we were sinning, God, who had no need of man, man whose only deserts are destruction, sent His son out of glory into the form of human flesh, learn and live a sinless life, suffer more than any man in his life, being that pure and seeing rebellion everywhere, being tested in all ways yet without sin, then going through with it, oh PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE GOD, He took upon His body our sins, God judged them, AND THEY WILL NEVER BE JUDGED AGAIN, then God does what the OT Jews couldn't even look upon, the glory of God, put into our hearts, how can we be condemned? By Christ? He died for us, by the Father? He put our sins on His son, by the Spirit? No He lives in us and is our advocate, we are truly free if we are in Christ, FREE. And though now under the Angelic realm, our brother and King Jesus is bringing us up to His realm, it's just so glorious, so amazing, why are we not rejoicing in this alone, always?

IT IS COMPLETE, DONE, now if you are in Christ go live for Him, thank Him, try to glorify Him, forget your sins, focus on Christ and if you sin confess it to HIM, not to some sick priest, and go on. Just have faith in God, love your brothers and you will live, and NEVER COME INTO CONDEMNATION

 

[utilyan]

There are two main points to salvation, both accomplished by God Himself, and we the benefactors.

Christ lived a righteous life on our behalf. This was a NECESSITY. Christ could have been born, God could have had Him stuck down by Herod, and hey an atonement, but that's not what happened, Isaiah 53 pretty much explains the gospel, which is remarkable, no wonder it's called the 5th Gospel. When John said "It is you who should be baptizing me", Jesus said "No it must be so that I FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS", what? Christ had to fulfill all righteousness, for Him? No, FOR US.

Two, Christ died for the elects sin. "I lay down my life for my sheep". "I pray NOT FOR THE WORLD, but for those you gave me". On the cross, the great fulfillment of all the glorious OT prophecies, (Sorry getting excited), God placed the sins of the elect on Christ, which seems unjust except when we understand Jesus volunteered to take the punishment for our sins. "But wait one objects, our punishment is eternal, Jesus suffered some three hours under the Fathers wrath". True, but He IS ETERNAL, 3 hours was sufficient for Him to feel the grief of each and everyone of our sins.

If Jesus merely removed our sins, we'd be back to square one, like Adam, innocent without sin, but Paul EXHAUSTS THE SUBJECT in Romans, we, in addition to have no sins to our account, are given a "Foreign Righteousness", God applies through the Holy Spirit into each believer Christs righteousness.

What now? Now, for me, all my sins are paid for, AND Christs righteous life is imputed, accounted to me. It's called the "Great Exchange", our sins to Christ, His righteousness to us, if you are a believer. If you believe not your sin remains, and you will be judged on that great day.

Look at my moniker and read it, so true and GLORIOUS! Man, on the side of the devil, living in rebellion to God, yet while we were sinning, God, who had no need of man, man whose only deserts are destruction, sent His son out of glory into the form of human flesh, learn and live a sinless life, suffer more than any man in his life, being that pure and seeing rebellion everywhere, being tested in all ways yet without sin, then going through with it, oh PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE GOD, He took upon His body our sins, God judged them, AND THEY WILL NEVER BE JUDGED AGAIN, then God does what the OT Jews couldn't even look upon, the glory of God, put into our hearts, how can we be condemned? By Christ? He died for us, by the Father? He put our sins on His son, by the Spirit? No He lives in us and is our advocate, we are truly free if we are in Christ, FREE. And though now under the Angelic realm, our brother and King Jesus is bringing us up to His realm, it's just so glorious, so amazing, why are we not rejoicing in this alone, always?

IT IS COMPLETE, DONE, now if you are in Christ go live for Him, thank Him, try to glorify Him, forget your sins, focus on Christ and if you sin confess it to HIM, not to some sick priest, and go on. Just have faith in God, love your brothers and you will live, and NEVER COME INTO CONDEMNATION

"This was a NECESSITY."

No such thing as necessity with God. He didn't have to do it in any particular way. God doesn't need anything.

Matthew 3

9and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.





John 3

18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Jesus Christ states the guy who is damned is the guy who doesn't believe Jesus died for him.

Yet Calvinist would say Jesus didn't die for the guy who is damned........Well then that means the damned reprobate is telling the TRUTH!




1 john 5

10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Again same as last verse, except here it clearly says the damned person is calling GOD a LIAR if he doesn't believe Jesus died for him.


Simple question if a damned reprobate says Jesus Christ did not die for him is he a LIAR or HONEST?

Question #2 IS common sense the last thing a elect person regenerates?

 

[JonC]

Jesus screamed out that God had forsaken Him, and he had, during those 3 years he was experiencing the same things all lost sinners will, but His was just for 3 hours, and afterwards, He was once again fully one with his father!

Wait......are you saying that Jesus was not fully one with His Father while He hung on the Cross?????

 

[utilyan]

I'm not a moderator here. I mod a different Christian board. Their rules are only slightly different.

What is allowed here and other boards is completely up to those who manage it. I have no criticisms of this board.

My experience in posting tells me that when a Christian (or anyone) has to resort to name-calling, their position is bankrupt. Scripture speaks to our behavior with other believers.

James 1:26King James Version (KJV)

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Colossians 4:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. 6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

Unbelievers may be watching. What kind of message are we sending them?

I agree totally. Else your a Liar.

I also believe I would be in MORE trouble with God if I were "RIGHT" holding spite against you.

The claim is there is a verse where God decrees, judges and states "all mankind deserves hell".

So naturally its a matter of pointing out the verse.

If that verse is not there when they say it is, does that make them a liar?

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Its very true people attack character when they can't attack the content. Sometimes It takes a lot of humility to utter the truth, "that verse does not exist".

 

[Yeshua1]

Wait......are you saying that Jesus was not fully one with His Father while He hung on the Cross?????

the fellowship beween the Father and Jesus was broken during that time Jesus experience the full Wrath of God poured upon Him as our sin bearer, as he for the first and only time felt really apart from God, just as a sinner being judged would feel!