The difference between Calvinists and Armenians (as I see it)

[Brother Bob]

I'm surely glad that God did not treat me fairly. I'm grateful that he extended mercy and grace toward me, not fairness. If He treated me fairly, I would be without hope, in this life or the next.

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me.

Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints

I am glad my God is a JUST God and didn't perfer you over me or anyone else. What makes you so great.

God, as Creator, has the right to dispose of His creation as He see fit.

And I thank God every day it is not up to the Calvinist, that He loved His whole creation and not just a few which goes against the whole Bible even against your mentor Apostle Paul who said "if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, thou shalt be saved". amen I agree with Paul, Jesus and the whole Bible it takes faith and belief and not some pre-conceived notion of being a special people above and beyond the rest.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I don't know of any calvinist who thinks they are special or deserve any special favor. We are sinners like the rest, saved by His grace (unmerited favor). You build way too many false ideas about calvinism. I don't even think you are being truthful in your responses. Forgive me.

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't know of any calvinist who thinks they are special or deserve any special favor. We are sinners like the rest, saved by His grace (unmerited favor). You build way too many false ideas about calvinism. I don't even think you are being truthful in your responses. Forgive me.

Oh yes you do, you think God picked you and a few more over the whole world and sent the rest to hell. If that is not feeling special.

Give me Scripture and not your words to why you were chosen over the rest of the world?

So now you stoop to calling me untruthful. It figures.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I was chosen by God because of His will, not my own. John 1:12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name,
13. who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Do I need to quote Romans 9 for you again BB? I think plenty of people have quoted it and many others for you. Be honest in how you present calvinism.

 

[Brother Bob]

I was chosen by God because of His will, not my own. John 1:12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name,
13. who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Do I need to quote Romans 9 for you again BB? I think plenty of people have quoted it and many others for you. Be honest in how you present calvinism.

Do you see "believe" in that Scripture or do you just gloss over it?

Yes, quote Romans 9: but while you are at it please include Romans 10: ,if you want and I will answer you.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Of course we believe... after we were Born of the Spirit of God. I never said or any other calvinist has said we don't have to believe. The Holy Spirit enables us to beleive. You know what we have said so many times BB. Stop being dishonest in how you say we believe. When you are honest in what calvinist claim, I'll respond to you further. Until then, I'm done with you.

 

[Brother Bob]

When you stoop to accusing me of not telling the truth tells me that you are losing the argument.
From "Abel" to the end it took "faith/belief" to be saved, then all the rest happens.

When you are "born again" you are saved. That is what "born again" means.

But who am I to argue with the pre-chosen?

Of course we believe... after we were Born of the Spirit of God. I never said or any other calvinist has said we don't have to believe. The Holy Spirit enables us to beleive. You know what we have said so many times BB. Stop being dishonest in how you say we believe. When you are honest in what calvinist claim, I'll respond to you further. Until then, I'm done with you.

If I didn't have the Scriptures on my side I would too. Apostle Paul didn't say anything about being born of he Spirit first. You are saying God saves those who believe in the devil instead of him but Paul disagrees with you and so do It. You are either serving one master or the other.


Acts, chapter 16
29": Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

"30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[webdog]

And desires in regards to spiritual matters are tied to one's nature. We are born with a fallen nature. How shall that fallen nature produce right desires and therefor right choices before God?

Necessity

I was not equating desire with pleasure, pleasure stems from desire. You lump desire and necessity together, but that is not the case.

Desire
DESIRE, n.
1. An emotion or excitement of the mind, directed to the attainment or possession of an object from which pleasure, sensual, intellectual or spiritual, is expected; a passion excited by the love of an object, or uneasiness at the want of it, and directed to its attainment or possession. Desire is a wish to possess some gratification or source of happiness which is supposed to be obtainable. A wish may exist for something that is or is not abtainable. Desire, when directed solely to sensual enjoyment, differs little from appetite. In other languages, desire is expressed by longing or reaching toward, and when it is ardent or intense, it approaches to longing, but the word in English usually expresses less than longing.
We endeavored-to see your face with great desire. 1 Th 2.
Thou satisfiest the desires of every living thing. Psa 145.
Desire is that internal act, which, by influencing the will, makes us proceed to action.

Necessity
NECESSITY, n.
1. That which must be and cannot be otherwise, or the cause of that which cannot be otherwise. It is of necessity that a thing cannot be and not be at the same time. It is of necessity that two contradictory propositions cannot both be true.
2. Irresistible power; compulsive force, physical or moral. If mans actions are determined by causes beyond his control, he acts from necessity, and is not a free agent. Necessity compelled the general to act on the defensive.

 

[J.D.]

Necessity

I was not equating desire with pleasure, pleasure stems from desire. You lump desire and necessity together, but that is not the case.

Desire
DESIRE, n.
1. An emotion or excitement of the mind, directed to the attainment or possession of an object from which pleasure, sensual, intellectual or spiritual, is expected; a passion excited by the love of an object, or uneasiness at the want of it, and directed to its attainment or possession. Desire is a wish to possess some gratification or source of happiness which is supposed to be obtainable. A wish may exist for something that is or is not abtainable. Desire, when directed solely to sensual enjoyment, differs little from appetite. In other languages, desire is expressed by longing or reaching toward, and when it is ardent or intense, it approaches to longing, but the word in English usually expresses less than longing.
We endeavored-to see your face with great desire. 1 Th 2.
Thou satisfiest the desires of every living thing. Psa 145.
Desire is that internal act, which, by influencing the will, makes us proceed to action.

Necessity
NECESSITY, n.
1. That which must be and cannot be otherwise, or the cause of that which cannot be otherwise. It is of necessity that a thing cannot be and not be at the same time. It is of necessity that two contradictory propositions cannot both be true.
2. Irresistible power; compulsive force, physical or moral. If mans actions are determined by causes beyond his control, he acts from necessity, and is not a free agent. Necessity compelled the general to act on the defensive.

Which proves my point. Notice the definition of necessity "compulsive force". That's pretty much what I said. Necessity coerced your decision. All decisions are coerced by some person or some thing and are the product of your desires.

Desire is "a passion excited by the love of an object". People that have no love for God have no desire for Him and therefor will not receive Him. Their decision will infallibly be to reject Him, unless they are changed by God. The love of God must be shed abroad in their hearts by His Spirit before they will have that passion excited by the love of Him.

 

[webdog]

Which proves my point. Notice the definition of necessity "compulsive force". That's pretty much what I said. Necessity coerced your decision. All decisions are coerced by some person or some thing and are the product of your desires.

Desire is "a passion excited by the love of an object". People that have no love for God have no desire for Him and therefor will not receive Him. Their decision will infallibly be to reject Him, unless they are changed by God. The love of God must be shed abroad in their hearts by His Spirit before they will have that passion excited by the love of Him.

If a "compulsive force" governs our decisions, they are not decisions at all. We keep going around and around. This whole point stems from the fact that you stated man is "bound" by what he desires, and the conversation has moved into man is "bound" by necessity instead. You state that people have "no love for God'. Where is that proof? The problem is not that they don't love God...they love themselves more. You can love something more than something else whithout witholding love altogether. Man doesn't see the "necessity" of not loving themselves more. They are in no way "bound" to any either way.

 

[Brother Bob]

Matthew, chapter 6

"24": No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.



Luke, chapter 16

"13": No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 

[reformedbeliever]

If a "compulsive force" governs our decisions, they are not decisions at all. We keep going around and around. This whole point stems from the fact that you stated man is "bound" by what he desires, and the conversation has moved into man is "bound" by necessity instead. You state that people have "no love for God'. Where is that proof? The problem is not that they don't love God...they love themselves more. You can love something more than something else whithout witholding love altogether. Man doesn't see the "necessity" of not loving themselves more. They are in no way "bound" to any either way.

Hello Webdog. Greetings brother. Romans 1: 30. slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
I think this clearly points out that lost people hate God. I think John 8 pretty much points out that they didn't exactly love Him. 40. "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. I know Jesus was talking to the Jews, but we know that Jesus is God, therefore...... I was just pointing out a few verses... there are many more. Hope you didn't mind me stepping into the discussion.

 

[webdog]

Notice "hate" (miseo). It doesn't mean a witholding of love, as would be normally translated today. This "hate" is used the same here, and does not mean opposite of love, but rather putting one above another...

Luke 14:26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Looks like we posted at the same time webdog. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Blammo]

Hello Blammo,

This maybe a idea. When using verses of the Bible, know the meaning of the words used in the verse as it is used thoughout the Bible. That's number one.

2nd..Use each verse in context.

Both of these would be good rules to follow.

Gee wiz, James, would you like to tell me what this verse means?

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here is a hint.... :smilewinkgrin:

2434. hilasmos
Search for G2434 in KJVSL
ilamoV hilasmos hil-as-mos'
atonement, i.e. (concretely) an
expiator:--propitiation.

 

[Jarthur001]

Notice "hate" (miseo). It doesn't mean a witholding of love, as would be normally translated today. This "hate" is used the same here, and does not mean opposite of love, but rather putting one above another...

Luke 14:26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Has anyone ever heard of the word...context?

 

[Jarthur001]

Gee wiz, James, would you like to tell me what this verse means?

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here is a hint.... :smilewinkgrin:

2434. hilasmos
Search for G2434 in KJVSL
ilamoV hilasmos hil-as-mos'
atonement, i.e. (concretely) an
expiator:--propitiation.

Then you now know why your verse will not work here...right?

 

[J.D.]

Hello Webdog. Greetings brother. Romans 1: 30. slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
I think this clearly points out that lost people hate God. I think John 8 pretty much points out that they didn't exactly love Him. 40. "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. I know Jesus was talking to the Jews, but we know that Jesus is God, therefore...... I was just pointing out a few verses... there are many more. Hope you didn't mind me stepping into the discussion.

Not only do I not mind you stepping in but you can take over my end of the debate if you like. I have to log off for a while, could be a couple of days before I can do any more posting. I wish I had time to comment on your thread on universalism but I can't formulate my thoughts on that subject without getting into a long treatise.

 

[Blammo]

Then you now know why your verse will not work here...right?

No, I don't know why. Why don't you explain it? :thumbs:

Were you born saved?

 

[Jarthur001]

Not only do I not mind you stepping in but you can take over my end of the debate if you like. I have to log off for a while, could be a couple of days before I can do any more posting. I wish I had time to comment on your thread on universalism but I can't formulate my thoughts on that subject without getting into a long treatise.

Are you saying we should keep our post short?

If so...I need to stop posting. In the old "no limit" layout they had before this I use to write BOOKS...if needed..and webdog can say amen to this.

I'm wording..and say the same thing 3 times.

Oh well..others will get over it.