Featured The Eternal Purpose of Christ PT 3

Scripture is either poetical and not useful in our discussions, or was written to the Jews only, or was anthropomorphic and God's not really angry, even with Satan, &c.

If I have 10,000 marbles, I have every right to keep them or give them away. If I give 10,000 people each 1, that is the only way I am being fair in your eyes. But none deserve me giving them one. Now, God if He is being completely fair, He'd toss everyone of us in the lake of fire. That is Him being fair. It was in His mercy that He sent Jesus to die for a multitude of sinners that never deserved to be saved to begin with. You are conflating God's mercy with His fairness. If He is truly being fair, you and I would be in hell right now. But in His mercy, He saved us by sending His Son to die in our stead.

Uncalled for.

I have already shown you that there are at least three differing meanings of 'world'. World as in the earth as Job states God hung the earth(entire world) on nothing.[Job 26:7] Then there is 'world' in regards to sinners, where it says we are to come out from among the world.[2 Cor. 6:17] So then if there is a 'world' of unbelievers, then they is a 'world' of believers, the church.

God would be fair to send everyone of us to hell, mon ami. It is in His mercy that He even saved one sinner.

1) He gave the Jews the Law and commanded them to keep it knowing full well they could not. By your standards, He was being unfair with them.

2) We are commanded to be holy even as He is holy. By your standards God is being unfair.

3) Jesus told the adultress to 'go and sin no more' and by your standards God was being unfair.

He commands us to do that which we can not do to show He does for us that which we can not do. But to you, that is Him being unfair.

Yes, even those who never knew He existed, too.

Sinners are in the realm of death and darkness and can not see where they are going spiritually speaking. As Paul wrote Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?[2 Cor. 6:14] Darkness can not be in God's presence and you expect sinners, who are in the darkness, to be able to seek for Him. None can seek Him unless He first draws them. When they are being drawn, they are no longer in darkness, but the Light is shining to them, showing them the Way.

God's fairness, again mon ami, would be to cast everyone of us into hell.

You just lumped the disciples in with us, too. They could not get to Spain, as you stated Paul purposed to go to Spain because no one had been there and he never went where others had been. From the time of Christ's burial and Paul's missionary work in Spain, many died never hearing the gospel. I guess the disciples have those Spainards' blood on their hands, too?

I am calling shenanigans. Who were the census takers? Where are the statistics to support such an outlandish claim? I am calling shenanigans.

Yet I do not believe everyone has heard the gospel even until this day, mon ami. Why? And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.[Matt. 24:14] So if I am understanding this verse correctly, when the last person who is to be saved is saved, saved via the gospel, then the end will come.

Yes, we do not need be sitting on our duff doing nothing. We need to be telling the lost about Jesus.

 

Yes.

I do not disagree with this assessment, mon ami.

Yes, those Pharisees hated Jesus. They wanted nothing to do with Him. They did not want Him to be their King. Hence the usage of that parable.

I wished you would not quote that heretic.

Non, mon ami, non. Here is where you are missing the point. ALL SINNERS hate God. Why do I say that. Sinners are in darkness, having no Light within them and Light has no fellowship with Light. When you was a sinner, you hated God. You may not have went around telling people you hated God, but you hated Him by your deeds. As Jesus so plainly put it “If you love me, keep my commands"[Jn. 14:15] and also "Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them”[Jn. 14:21] and finally If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.[Jn. 15:10] None of us in our fallen state had the ability, the wherewithal to keep His commands, so by our deeds, we hated Him. That is why it is so important to show that God loves those who Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.[1 Jn. 4:7] And furthermore Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.[1 Jn. 5:1] Notice how 1 Jn. 5:1 is worded..."Everyone who BELIEVES that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." So those who believe have been born of God before they believed. As it is written and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.[1 Cor. 12:3b]

Just like Lazarus was seeking Him while in the tomb. This was an actual event, but it has a 'parabolic language' to it. What Christ did to raise Lazarus physically, He does to us Spiritually. We were dead in our transgressions and sins[Eph. 2:1]. We could not truly hear the gospel. Sure, we could with our natural ears, but in order to be saved, the ears of the spiritual man have to hear the gospel. Lazarus' friends could have came and cried 'Lazarus come out of there' until they turned blue in the face and he would not have came out. Why? He was dead. That is with our preaching, monsieur. We preach to sinners and yet they walk out of the church still lost. Why? They are dead in their sins and can not hear. Now, when Jesus came along, He spoke to Lazarus and he heard His glorious voice calling him out of death and darkness unto Life and Light. When Lazarus heard, he had no other choice than to come out. He was effectually called from death unto life. That is the way God works on the souls of sinners. A God called preacher preaches the gospel and God moves within that gospel message and quickens a sinner unto life. He now hears the gospel with the ears of his soulish man and is drawn to Christ. He comes out of his spiritual tomb to Christ. He was quickened and responded to the effectual calling of God via the gospel.

Yet no one can come unless God the Father draws them. The Muslim disenchanted with their religion, seeking after God has to have the Spirit drawing them. Sinners have not the wherewithal to come to God of their own accord. They MUST be first drawn. To state otherwise is full-blown Pelagianism.


Too lengthy...had to cut this short...

 

Boy you sure do get hung up on dismissing a lot of scripture, mon ami. Is the Sermon on the Mount for us today, seeing He preached it to the Jews? What about the beatitudes? They were spoken to a Jewish audience, too. What about the Law? Do we have to keep it? It was written and given to the Jews.

:thumbsup:

Many do not think they are going to hell. Why? Because 'God is love' and a loving God will not send them to hell. They think their good deeds find favor with Him, when on the day of Judgment, they will find out otherwise. Many do not think they need saved, therefore, they do not see their need of being saved. Many think same-sex marriage/gay lifestyle is not a sin. They will find out when it is too late, mon ami.

Cornelius' prayers were heard by God, so there had to be something there, mon ami. God will not stand in the presence of sin. There was a commercial a few years ago about the Tide speed stick that erased stains just by rubbing it over a stain. This guy was having an interview and had a stain on his front shirt pocket. As he was talking, that stain was going "blah blah blah BLAH BLAH blah," and it was taking the attention away of the interviewer so that he could not hear what that guy was saying. Sinners can not pray to God and expect Him to hear them. Their sin precludes any response from Him. It is like their sins are going "blah blah, blah, blah, BLAH< BLAH, blah, blah." So for Cornelius' prayers to have been heard, a birth of the Spirit had to have taken place via the gospel.

I thought you said Acts was a book of transition? You are sure using it A LOT to prove your point. Again, no one can seek God while in darkness. They stumble, not having any Light, because they can not see where they are going.

And your free will theology does not allow you to go far enough. :tongue3:

You never accepted one thing while a sinner. You may have acknowledged Him and His Messiahship and acknowledged Him as lord, but unless it comes from the heart, you never truly believed. The same with me. I acknowledged Him for years, but I never truly believed. It was not until He drew me that I truly believed in Him.

Jesus crying out over Jerusalem was Him as a man as well as God. As the bible says, He does not delight in the wicked's death, but in His holiness, sin must be punished.

 

All scripture is for all believers and not some for the Jews only. We, all believers, are Jews inwardly, being grafted in. Even the saved Jews are inwardly Jews, too.

Again, God being fair is casting everyone of us into hell. You are continually conflating fairness with mercy. Fairness never saved one soul. Grace, through faith, by God's merciful sacrifice of His Son is what saves. Not fairness.

Whew!! At least neither of us posted a novel this time. :laugh:

 

Okay. How does a sinner seek after the Lord? Can they seek Him outside the drawing of the Spirit?

 

Uhhhhh, because that is what they rightly deserve?

God made man to give Him glory. God did not need man, but man needs God. God was God eons before He spoke the words “Let there be light.”[Gen. 1:3] When Adam sinned, God would have been fair to cast everyone of us in hell. How can you not see this?

He would be. :thumbsup:

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree(LBCoF 1689)

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel. ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

None of these support your claims, monsieur. Care to expound your thoughts?

:thumbsup:

God created man to give Him glory, yes. When Adam sinned, the whole Adamic race became polluted, saturated by sin. God would have been just and fair to have held back His Son and left us in our sins to die an eternal death in the lake of fire. Why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden and allowed the serpent to beguile Eve and then cause Adam to eat of that tree is something only He is privy to. But God sent His Son to die to redeem a multitude of sinners from their sins. I rest in that.

If someone murders someone and they get the death penalty, they got what they deserved. It is only at the mercy of the judge if he/she spares them their life. We deserved hell, mon ami, and God's mercy was the only thing that kept us out of going there.

 

DHK,

You mentioned Joseph and his dealings with the cupbearer and the baker so I will now finally address it. I am not dodging any subject you throw at me,mon ami, but you try to throw too much at me and at times I can not answer all of them at once. So, please be patient with me.

Joseph was not placing his faith in them, but God. Look at how Joseph found favor in every place he went. He found favor in Potiphar's sight. When his wife lied and got Joseph tossed into prison, he found favor in the prison warden's sight, too. He was trusting God to use those men, either of them or both, to get him out of prison.

It even says in Genesis 39 Joseph found favor in his eyes and became his attendant. Potiphar put him in charge of his household, and he entrusted to his care everything he owned. From the time he put him in charge of his household and of all that he owned, the Lord blessed the household of the Egyptian because of Joseph. The blessing of the Lord was on everything Potiphar had, both in the house and in the field.[vss. 4,5] That to me shows Joseph as being an OT type of Christ. Why? God blesses us not because we are anything special, but only because of Christ. That is where your theology runs off the skids, mon ami. It is almost like you are saying "foul, foul, foul," if we say that God is being fair for sending sinners to hell.

A.W. Pink(I think it was him) wrote concerning God blessing people because of others and used this Joseph account. He also expounded upon how this typified how God blesses others only because of their relationship with Christ.

 

Everything God made is good, never stated differently. However, man has corrupted it by their sinful, wicked heart. God made intercourse to be an holy occasion for the husband and wife to be fruitful and to enjoy each other. Mankind has corrupted it by being g@y, sleeping with animals, others outside their marriage, doing it for money, &c.

That is why they were not included in the canon of scripture.

God is love, I have never said anything to the contrary. However, we are not. We loved ourselves. We who truly love, have been born of God.

Sin unpaid for is dealt with justifiably on the day of Judgment. God is just to leave everyone of us in our sins, yet, He sent a Lamb to hang, bleed, and die for a multitude of sinners who justly deserved hell.

In my opinion? I never stated such a perverted idea. God is immutable. He changes not. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. God never wooed and pleaded with Adam. He called and they came out of hiding. That is effectual calling at its finest.

God never wooed and pleaded with Satan and his minions to come back into fellowship with Him. He justly(fairly) condemned them to the lake of fire without any offer of reconciliation. God does with His creation, both angels and man, as He deems fit.

You do not receive grace without mercy and vice versa. God would have been just(right and fair) to consign us to hell and not send Jesus to begin with. That is justice. In grace and mercy, He sent His Son to die for us.