The flimsy foundation of ME

[skypair]

So what happens to those people who allow someone to take their crown away or simply lose their crown on their own?

"Saved so as by fire." On to the wedding!!

skypair

 

[jne1611]

:applause:

(and to link Calvinism to the ME error is ludicrous)

Amen! It sure is!

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy --- these are "discernment" passages. They are for discerning who are believers and who are not.

God bless you for actually considering the scriptural arguments, rather than ignoring them and then rebuking us for not giving any.

Yours is a very complicated system. You would have to prove to me that God stops in the middle of an address to believers and speaks to non-believers and instructs them in how to know whether they are saved, and gives them a list of sins that they shouldn't be doing.


If the listener is absolutely sure he hasn't committed these sins in a while, can he now be certain he is "really" saved?

And as you probably notice, some of them cut "close to the bone" -- envying, strife, heresy, foolish talk, jesting. Are you ready to put down the stone yet, "Mr/Ms Pharisee?" What they are talking about is CONTINUOUS sinning in these. True believers ought to be "corrected" with such comparisons and repent -- unblelievers won't.

"True"? There you go again. What is the difference between a believer, an unbeliever, and a true believer?

That is part of God's chastening and, as I have told you before, this is the "hell" you think believers must experience only after this life.

skypair

No that is wrong. We have said repeatedly that God often chastens us in this life. Thank God!!

1 Timothy 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

But the day of judgment is coming. The parables show it, the epistles show it. Revelation shows it.

The day of reckoning for God's people id the JSOC. If we get rewarded early, that's just gravy.

 

[jne1611]

"Saved so as by fire." On to the wedding!!

skypair

The only problem with this, is, ME teaches that that fire is hell if I understand them right.

 

[Lacy Evans]

(and to link Calvinism to the ME error is ludicrous)

Anyone notice how some believe that Calvanism is the absolute death blow to the ME "heresy" (I presume I can use the word as it is directed toward me), while others think that Calvanism is the reason ME exists.

You ever hear the story about the blind brothers and the elephant?

Lacy

 

[Amy.G]

Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
Col 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.


Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, {engaged} in evil deeds,
Col 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--


Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

No hell for believers.

:jesus: paid it ALL!

 

[Hope of Glory]

I believe in eternal security!

Good Morning

You won't find any security in John 3:16. Aionian life is conditional in that verse. So, if that's talking about being born from above, you can lose that.

But, you are correct that your spiritual salvation is quite secure and can never be lost. (Unless God is a liar, and he's not.)

 

[Hope of Glory]

Be careful, npetreley -- with the brush you are using on ME, you ought to also paint Calvinism!

skypair

And in this case, Arminianism, and any other ism that is out there.

 

[Hope of Glory]

You know -- it's kind of a ghastly thing for you ME-ers to send the "bride" of Christ to hell on her wedding night!!

Mind showing where any of us have done that?

 

[Hope of Glory]

His answer being honest is your opinion, and not necessarily fact. As a matter of fact, since the Word of God teaches that all who come to Christ will not be ashamed, his answer and your opinion of his answer mean nothing in light of God's Holy Word.

Shame has nothing to do with it.

Reaction to ungodly and wicked behavior in the form of lies, name-calling, and libel, is exactly the reason.

I'm not ashamed of my wife, however I would not intentionally take her somewhere that people will be throwing eggs and rocks at her.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I like a lot of what you said to Lazarus but here's the problem -- to you, the person who is saved with no works isn't saved from anything! He/she already has eternal life or existence -- though it be in hell without a body. And he or she is not, according to you, saved from hell, the very place that the lost, Satan, and his devils go. So what really are those who "believe" saved from?

I think part of the problem is the same problem that I had for many years in equating "hell" with "lake of fire forever and ever". "Hell" in the KJV, has been translated from four different words: Two of them apply to everyone, saved or not (we're all going there), one of them seems to apply only to angels, and the other one is gehenna.

Contextually, the warnings of gehenna are aimed at saved people. Those who think you can become unsaved use these verses to "prove" that you can become unsaved. Others use these verses to "prove" that a saved person who is really and truly saved, wouldn't do these things.

Well, show me where "gehenna" and "lake of fire forever and ever" are the same thing. Usually, people answer, "see 'fiery gehenna'!" Well, there's going to be fire at the JSOC, as well.

Many literal translations simply transliterate the four words because of this controversy.

15 in the NASB - All NT Scriptures
15 in the Amplified;
54 King James;
14 in the NIV;
20 in the New Living Translation;
54 in the 21st Century King James
13 in the ASV – All NT Scriptures
14 in the ESV – All NT Scriptures
15 in the NET – All NT Scriptures
0 in Rotherham’s
0 in the CLV
0 in Weymouth’s
[FONT=&quot]0 in Young’s

The last 4 are all literal translations.

So, if only the unsaved are going to hell, then we're all in trouble, because we're all going to "hell".
[/FONT]

 

[Hope of Glory]

So what happens to those people who allow someone to take their crown away or simply lose their crown on their own?

And, since the Olympic games seem to be the model being used, what happened to those participants who were disqualified?

 

[J. Jump]

Since most of the visible church today is of the lukewarm variety and will be spewed out, please don't forget to read my working definition of the true church posted here.

BGTF you gave two passages of Scripture of which neither was dealing with the bride of Christ.

It seems to me that "your" working definition of the church is a pretty typical Lordship salvation type definition and that is unless you really and truly believe and are producing the right walk you really don't belong to the church.

This can also be seen from the statement that I quoted here that most of the visible church today is lukewarm and will be spewed out. I'm taking that to mean that you think these people aren't really saved in the first place?

So we still have some stuff to get through before we move on.

 

[J. Jump]

Tradition be damned, JJ! Read your Bible, will you?!

Mt 25:1-13 shows 10 virgins. Five will be "bride" -- because they have the Spirit/oil. Five, you're right, are still lost though they attend church, etal. That doesn't mean that the "foolish five" go to hell for 1000 years --- it means they go through the 7 year tribulation.

You sure got a lot to learn before you start trying to teach orthodoxy to the rest of us!

I see you still can't prove a point without being rude and hateful. You know for you folks that think you have some much Truth on your side you sure have some poor ways of communicating.

All 10 virgins had oil. Five were smart enough and brought an extra supply of oil. Five did not. The language used and the numbers used tell us that all 10 were saved. Five were wise and five were foolish. Just the same in Christendom. There are some wise folks that walk by the Spirit and there are some foolish that walk by the flesh.

To say that five were unsaved is just silly because unsaved folks don't long for the husband to return. They could care less. They go on about their everyday business as unbelievers not believers. The foolish believed the husband was coming back and were waiting on him, they just didn't make good preparation.

That is just exactly what James is telling us in that we can believe all we want to, but if that faith does not produce the proper work then it is useless and will not save you. It didn't matter that they believed, because they didn't prepare properly.

 

[Lazarus]

For those who want to take Paul's letters and make them say that a believer can lose his salvation or in some way come into condemnation when scripture clearly says "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus" then I just want to say you are yourselves in danger of the Judgement.

When I look at Paul's letters I see an evangelist in the truest sense of the word. Have you ever had an evangelist visit your church? We have one come on occasion and he is of the Fire and Brimestone persuasion . He doesn't just talk, he screams to the point that I think the devil himself must be running for the doors. He sounds just like Paul and he's talking to us. the believers in the church. I sometimes get annoyed because I'm a believer and he's talking like I'm a heathen, but then I think that If perhaps there is even one person in the congregation who isn't truly saved and this man helps bring conviction to his heart then I can sit their and know that God's work is being done.

So when Paul says : Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. He is talking to those in the congregation who have "said the sinners prayer" but haven't truely believed in their heart. "2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: "

 

[Amy.G]

For those who want to take Paul's letters and make them say that a believer can lose his salvation or in some way come into condemnation when scripture clearly says "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus" then I just want to say you are yourselves in danger of the Judgement.

When I look at Paul's letters I see an evangelist in the truest sense of the word. Have you ever had an evangelist visit your church? We have one come on occasion and he is of the Fire and Brimestone persuasion . He doesn't just talk, he screams to the point that I think the devil himself must be running for the doors. He sounds just like Paul and he's talking to us. the believers in the church. I sometimes get annoyed because I'm a believer and he's talking like I'm a heathen, but then I think that If perhaps there is even one person in the congregation who isn't truly saved and this man helps bring conviction to his heart then I can sit their and know that God's work is being done.

So when Paul says : Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. He is talking to those in the congregation who have "said the sinners prayer" but haven't truely believed in their heart. "2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: "

Absolutely! :thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
Col 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.


Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, {engaged} in evil deeds,
Col 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--


Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

No hell for believers.

:jesus: paid it ALL!

You highilighted some good words there. Now, let's look at the people to whom this is addressed and the highlighted words in that light, shall we?

"To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ"

It's to the saints and faithful brethren. Actually, "saint" and "faithful" are two adjectives describing "brethren", and Matthew 12:50 tells us that "brethren" are those who are being obedient. Are all saved people obedient? Are all saved people faithful? I've alreday shown that "saint" refers to those who have an outward showing of something special, not all saved people. But, tradition says that all saved people are "saints", so traditions of men trump Scriptures, usually.

They have qualified. These are saved individuals who have qualified to run the race. Since the picture of the Olympic games is being used, have you ever read the qualifications for competing? First, you had to be a citizen. But, there were lots of citizens who weren't qualified.

They are qualified to share in the inheritance. Inheritance is a family matter. Only those who are in the family can get a share of the inheritance, and as the story of Jacob and Esau shows, that inheritance can be changed, and as the story of the prodigal son shows, it can even be wasted entirely.

Verse 13 tells us specifically that it is a Kingdom message. And, just like those who followed David, they were tranferred into his kingdom, even before he was ruling over a kingdom.

Oh, well, I forgot, we need to scrap the Scriptures, and instead build on the traditions of men, so I'll go no further at this juncture.

 

[Amy.G]

They are qualified to share in the inheritance. Inheritance is a family matter. Only those who are in the family can get a share of the inheritance, and as the story of Jacob and Esau shows, that inheritance can be changed, and as the story of the prodigal son shows, it can even be wasted entirely.

How were they qualified?

Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

They were qualified by the Father through their faith in Christ. Anyone who has put their faith in Christ and received salvation has been qualified.

They also:
Have been reconciled
Will be presented holy, blamless and beyond reproach
Have been made alive with Him
Have had their debt (sin) cancelled
Have had their sin nailed to the cross through the body of Christ

It's a done deal.

It is FINISHED!

 

[J. Jump]

It's a done deal.

It is FINISHED!

If it's a done deal and finished based on my one-time faith in the Substitute then why does the Bible require a life-long faith as well? Why do I need to be chastened if everything is finished. Finished means complete, correct? If I'm still being chastened it doesn't sound to me like everything is finished and a done deal.

Maybe you can explain that one to me?

 

[TCGreek]

Let's see... To whom is this addressed?

Colossians 1:2: To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is addressed to those saved individuals who are being faithful and have an outward showing of that faith.

We should muse on that, when we muse upon who will appear with him in glory.

Now, this passage does not exclude others, in and of itself, but neither does it include others. So, it can only be used for "saints and faithful brethren". (Matthew 12:50 tells us that brethren are those who are being obedient, but Jesus was a legalist according to some, since, since, according to them, we don't need to be obedient.)

1. To the Corinthians who were riddled with problems Paul says, To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours... who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord (1 Cor 1:2, 8-9; emphasis mine).

2. If you want to make a distinction with those at Colossae, you should do the same here as well.

3. Riddled with problems, yet they are called saints, whom the Lord will confirm blameless at his coming.

4. There're different levels of Christian maturity, but all believers will be confirmed blameless at the coming of the Lord.

5. There's going to be no layover. If that's where you theology leads, then sorry you're on your own. But no believer in the Lord has to worry about a layover.