The Fourth Commandment

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Psa. 118:20 ..............................The seventh day Sabbath commemorates a work of God that has fallen into sin and corruption and is now groaning under sin and awaiting redemption. The first day of the week as typified in the feasts of the New Covenant and prophetically commanded in Psalms 118:20-24 commemorates a greater work of God that ushers in a New Creation – the resurrection of Christ.

GE:
Re:
“The seventh day Sabbath commemorates a work of God that has fallen into sin and corruption and is now groaning under sin and awaiting redemption. The first day of the week as typified in the feasts of the New Covenant and prophetically commanded in Psalms 118:20-24 commemorates a greater work of God that ushers in a New Creation – the resurrection of Christ.”

Why did you not make this your introduction to your contemplations on Psalm 118, Dr Walter? I suppose your answer would be something like, ‘Because it would be putting the cart before horse.’ And I would reply, So it’s harnessing the horse behind the cart. Instead of pushing the cart in the wrong direction, the horse pulls it in the wrong direction.

However.....

Re:
“The seventh day Sabbath commemorates a work of God that has fallen into sin and corruption and is now groaning under sin and awaiting redemption……”

GE:

So yes, The Sabbath— “The-Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD-your-God”, is about and “commemorates a work of God that has fallen into sin and corruption”— is about and commemorates a PERFECT work of God— his creation, that has fallen into sin and corruption. I have before on Baptist Board contended for the same, but of course was shot down – or tried to be shot down – by just about everybody. See
http://www.biblestudents.co.za/docs/html/Days%20of%20Genesis%201%20in%202%20and%203%20A.htm ……..
http://www.biblestudents.co.za/docs/html/Days%20in%20Genesis%20three%20articles.htm ……..
http://www.biblestudents.co.za/docs/html/Days%20of%20Genesis%201%20in%202%20and%203%20B.htm

In a word, The Sabbath— “The-Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD-your-God” is about and commemorates Redemption; not so much creation even though it was God’s sinless and perfect creation.

The Sabbath celebrates— or rather is for celebrating by God’s People, the REDEMPTION / SALVATION of this perfect and then in sin and corruption fallen and then again from sin and corruption saved and redeemed creation, in Jesus Christ and through Jesus Christ— and in that order! Creation does not first improve itself for God to only help it the last inch out of the pit of sin and corruption or death. That’s why Arminianists just cannot tolerate Psalm 118 is a Song of David and the Lamb on the Lord’s Day. Like Exodus 15 is a Song of Moses and the Lamb on the Lord’s Day, so is Psalm 118 …. and Revelation 14 …. and the entire New Testament and Bible! In its entirety the Story of Redemption by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead is God’s Song He sings on the Sabbath Day with his People. The Sabbath is a hymn— a Church song. This hymn, its melody, harmony and rhythm, is taken up throughout the Scriptures by ALL saints of all dispensations on the sea of glass of their eternal salvation. Rv14:3. Therefore it from eternity lay before hand that Jesus Christ would rise from the dead “Sabbath’s”— never, on a Sunday…. The nearest it came to on a Sunday was in the hit, ‘Never on a Sunday’ of somewhere in the twentieth century— but God’s love is bestowed upon his beloved every day of the week and especially on the Sabbath Day. God can have his favorites things the same as He can have his favorite persons; who says He can’t?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Accurate as far as the wording of the statements and accurate within the general time frame given as scholars vary their dates from scholar to scholar. All occurred before Constantines Sunday law.

GE:
70 AD is VERY FAR from 'accurate'. It is hopelessly incorrect and dates Ignatius - never mind pseudo-Ignatius - before the Gospels! 'Scholar-to-scholar' their aunt!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Here's the sequence I determined for the Resurrection accounts:
http://www.erictb.info/resurrection.html

The key is to realize that groups such as "the women" and "the eleven/twelve" are not always necessarily the same exact people.

Here is the summary:

0 Women besides 2 Mary's and Salome prepare spices before the Sabbath
1 2 Mary's and Salome buy spices
2 at end of Sabbath/beginning of first day, the two Mary's set out to come to the tomb.
3 Mary Magdalene gets there first, when it is yet dark
4 Earthquake, and angle rolls away stone
5 Mary Magdalene sees stone rolled away and tells Peter, who comes with John and sees empty grave cloths, and both leave.
6 Other Mary and Salome arrive after the sun has risen, and find stone rolled away and single angel, still there.
7 he tells them Jesus has risen
8 But they run away afraid, and don't tell anyone
9 Mary returns from having gotten Peter, and weeps. By now, a second angel has joined the first, and then the risen Jesus makes his first appearance.
10 She goes and tells the other women, who don't believe; except, apparently, for...
11 the other Mary and Salome, who NOW "depart with fear and joy and ran to bring His disciples word", but Jesus meets them, and gives them the instruction that the disciples should meet them in Galilee.
12 They tell them, but they do not believe
13 Now, we pick up with Luke's account of the rest of the women, who did not believe Mary Magdalene. They now go to the tomb themselves, after all the others, but still "very early"; bringing the spices they had prepared before the Sabbath.
14 They find the empty tomb.
15 They now see the two angels, who give them the message, which they run to tell the eleven.
16)Guards and Pharisees fabricate their “Passover plot” myth.
17 The OTHER of "the eleven disciples" goes up to Galilee
18 and assemble, with the doors closed, and Jesus appears to them
19 Some (notably, Thomas, who wasn't there) still doubt, but then eight days later, Jesus appears again, so he can see.
20)Christ appears to men on the road to Emmaus.
21 They tell the eleven and others at Jerusalem (including that he had apparently already appeared to "Simon", in the other group). They at first still don't believe, but then Jesus appears to them, and corrects their unbelief. He also is given fish and honeycomb to eat.
22 He appears to them again in Galilee (sea of Tiberias), and causes them to catch a huge net of fish, which he gives them to eat.
23, 24 Jumps to end of forty days, with different parts of Great Commission reported by Matthew and Mark
25 ascension
26 Disciples begin to carry out commission. Picks up in book of Acts.

1 Corinthians 15
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures;
5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the Twelve.
6 Afterward He was seen by over five hundred brothers at once, of whom the greater part remain until this present day, but also some fell asleep.
7 Afterward He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

GE:
Re:
EB, “The key is to realize that groups such as "the women" and "the eleven/twelve" are not always necessarily the same exact people.”

GE:
Yes! If “not always the same people” necessarily the events aren’t the same. That is the real and ‘exacting’ “key”. Or one must accept “the same” event is being recorded in the different Gospels with contradictions and irreconcilabilities.

Re:
EB, “0 Women besides 2 Mary's and Salome prepare spices before the Sabbath”

GE:
No! Luke states “That Day was The Preparation and the Sabbath (Saturday) drew on. And the women WHO CAME WITH HIM FROM GALILEE also followed after (in the procession to the grave) and, looking into the sepulchre, watched while his body was laid (inside by Joseph and Nicodemus). And THEY, went home and prepared spices and ointments (before) they started to rest the Sabbath according to the (Fourth) Commandment.”

So,
1) they weren’t “women besides 2 Mary's”; they WERE, the “2 Mary's”! And
2) they weren’t “2 Mary's and Salome”; they were the “2 Mary's” ONLY.

Matthew 27:61 and Mark 15:47 NAMED THESE TWO, women AT THE BURIAL: “Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses / the other Mary …. sitting over against the sepulchre …. saw where He was laid.”

Re:
EB, “1 2 Mary's and Salome buy spices”

GE:
Yes! But when? You don’t say! But Mark 16:1 says it was, “When the Sabbath had gone through”— which is in the beginning of the First Day on ‘Saturday evening’.

Re:
EB, “2 at end of Sabbath/beginning of first day, the two Mary's set out to come to the tomb.”

GE:
No! You have it completely wrong. Matthew 28:1 says “Late in the end of the Sabbath as daylight began to incline towards the First Day of the week (on ‘Saturday’) mid-afternoon Mary Magdalene and the other Mary set out to come TO LOOK at to the tomb when suddenly there was a great earthquake.” You cannot just ignore the intention of theses women “to come TO LOOK at to the tomb”, because it is important they did not finish what they “set out to” do. The “great earthquake” PREVENTED their visit TO, the tomb, “TO see”.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Re:
EB, “3 Mary Magdalene gets there first, when it is yet dark”

GE:
Your fabricated illusion.

Re:
EB, “4 Earthquake, and angle rolls away stone”

GE:
Out of place, far behind schedule….

Re:
EB, “5 Mary Magdalene sees stone rolled away and tells Peter, who comes with John and sees empty grave cloths, and both leave.”

GE:
When? You don’t say, but John says it was – literally – “while early darkness still”. Discussed above a lot! It was ‘Saturday evening’, dusk after sunset. Not “while DARK still” or Sunday ‘morning-dawn’ as tradition corrupted the truth.

Re:
EB, “6 Other Mary and Salome arrive after the sun has risen, and find stone rolled away and single angel, still there.
7 he tells them Jesus has risen”

GE:
Contrary all facts of Scripture in John 20:1-2 or for that matter, in John 20 from verse 1 to the end!
Mary alone discovers the stone was rolled away from the tomb;
NO ‘Salome’,
NO ‘single angel’ nearby!
No ‘tells them’ anything!
Not “after the sun has risen”, but,
“while yet early darkness / dusk /evening”.
See above discussed thoroughly and strictly to what is written and to the chronology of events and the dictates of logic.

Re:
EB, “8 But they run away afraid, and don't tell anyone.”

GE:
That was “very early dawn before sunrise” according to Mark 16:2-8; not John 20. And Mark gives NO names of women.

Re:
EB, “9 Mary returns from having gotten Peter, and weeps. By now, a second angel has joined the first, and then the risen Jesus makes his first appearance.”

GE:
Surmising, surmising….

Re:
EB, “10 She goes and tells the other women, who don't believe; except, apparently, for...
11 the other Mary and Salome, who NOW "depart with fear and joy and ran to bring His disciples word".”

GE:
You mix up no Scripture, “She goes and tells the other women”, Mk16:1 perhaps which mentions, “the other Mary and Salome” but not in these terms, and Mt28:8-10. The only thing seemingly correct is your supposition the other women (whoever they were) “depart(ed) with fear and joy and ran to bring His disciples word” WITHOUT Mary Magdalene.

Re:
EB, “12 They (the other Mary and Salome) tell them (His disciples), but they do not believe
13 Now, we pick up with Luke's account of the rest of the women, who did not believe Mary Magdalene. They now go to the tomb themselves, after all the others, but still "very early"; bringing the spices they had prepared before the Sabbath.”

GE:
It is the other way round!
Imagine the women after that they had discovered everything, that the tomb was opened, that the tomb was empty, even after that Jesus had appeared to them— according to you, EricB, “came with their spices prepared and ready… and entered the tomb … but his body they found not … and Him they saw not…” Lk24:1-3,22-24

You should BEGIN with Luke's account of ALL the women, who yet did not believe He rose, INCLUDING Mary Magdalene, because, so said Luke in verse 10! But all this confusion just because it is PRESUMED Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday morning!

And you should have ENDED with Matthew’s record of the angel’s witness about Jesus’ resurrection from 28:5 on, and Jesus’ subsequent second appearance, that, to the women OTHER THAN Mary Magdalene.

Re:
EB, “14 They find the empty tomb.
15 They now see the two angels, who give them the message, which they run to tell the eleven.
16)Guards and Pharisees fabricate their “Passover plot” myth.
17 The OTHER of "the eleven disciples" goes up to Galilee
18 and assemble, with the doors closed, and Jesus appears to them”

GE:
Luke’s account does not say “they run to tell”; it describes how the women meditating over what Jesus had told his disciples, “returned from the sepulchre, and told them ALL THESE THINGS” which the two angels advised them to “remember”.

“Guards and Pharisees fabricate their “Passover plot” myth” not after Mary had seen the moved away stone – the first in the series of events of Saturday night – but after Jesus had appeared to the women without Mary Magdalene— after sunrise early Sunday, about the same time when the women were entering the city to go tell his disciples— the last in the series of events of that Saturday night and Sunday morning before and after sunrise.

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:
70 AD is VERY FAR from 'accurate'. It is hopelessly incorrect and dates Ignatius - never mind pseudo-Ignatius - before the Gospels! 'Scholar-to-scholar' their aunt!

Dr. Cleavland Cox editor of the American Edition of The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, "Apostolic Fathers" concerning Ignatius dates his birth at 30 A.D. and his death at December 20th in December of 107 A.D. Hence, he would overlap all the apostles and would be in his upper twenties when most of the apostles were alive and would be nearly 40 years old at the time of Peter and Paul's death and the destruction of Jerusalem and would overlap the life of the Apostle John by 40more years.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Barnabas and the Sabbath

The epistle of Barnabas found in the first volume of the Ante-Nicene Fathers under "Apostolic Fathers" clearly teaches that the early Christians observed Sunday as the Christain Sabbath.

You sir, misrepresent Barnabas in your online book. Barnabas takes us back to the creation seventh day Sabbath not to prove that Christians observe that Sabbath, but to prove that God's plan for this world is on a seven day period, each day regarded as a thousand years and that the seventh day Sabbath has its ultimate application in the seventh thousand year when Christ comes back and brings rest to this present world.

However, He argues for an EIGHT THOUSAND YEAR after this sabbatical year as an eternal Sabbath and it is in regard to this EIGHTH thousand year he directly says:

"I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, thatis, a beginning of another world. WHEREFORE, also, we keep the EIGHTH day with joyfulness, the day also on wihch Jesus rose again from the dead."

He identifies the Old Testament Jewish sabbath as the SEVENTH day but demands the Christian Sabbath is the EIGHTH day. He denies that Jesus rose again on the Seventh day of the week but asserts he rose again on the EIGHTH day.

Therefore Barnabas disputes your whole chronology of events just as I do.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Neither does Ignatius support your seventh day Sabbath intepretation of his words.

Just previous to making his famous statement concerning the Lord's Day observation he says this:

"Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after te Jewish manner....And aft the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and cheif of all days [of the week]. Looking forward to this the prophet declared, 'To the end, for the EIGHTH DAY.' on which our life both sprain up again, and the victory over death was obtain in Christ......" - Longer version

"If therfore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things, have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but livng in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death....Lay aside, therefore the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ....It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judiaze." - shorter version

The Lord's Day is defined as the EIGHTH day not the Seventh. The Jewish seventh day Sabbath is regarded as the "old" and the Lord's Eighth Day as the "new."

In the context of both Ignatius and Barnabas the Jewish Seventh day sabbath is contrasted with the "EIGHTH" day and it is the EIGHTH day that they identify the resurrection. Hence, your argument that the term "Lords" (kuriakos) or "day" "hemera" do not occur is rendered stupid because there is a direct comparison between "seventh" and "eighth" and the "eighth" is identified as the resurrection day not the "seventh.

Hence, both Ignatius and Barnabas repudiate your interpretation of them and repudiate your chrononlogy of the resurrection.

The epistle of Barnabas found in the first volume of the Ante-Nicene Fathers under "Apostolic Fathers" clearly teaches that the early Christians observed Sunday as the Christain Sabbath.

You sir, misrepresent Barnabas in your online book. Barnabas takes us back to the creation seventh day Sabbath not to prove that Christians observe that Sabbath, but to prove that God's plan for this world is on a seven day period, each day regarded as a thousand years and that the seventh day Sabbath has its ultimate application in the seventh thousand year when Christ comes back and brings rest to this present world.

However, He argues for an EIGHT THOUSAND YEAR after this sabbatical year as an eternal Sabbath and it is in regard to this EIGHTH thousand year he directly says:

"I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, thatis, a beginning of another world. WHEREFORE, also, we keep the EIGHTH day with joyfulness, the day also on wihch Jesus rose again from the dead."

He identifies the Old Testament Jewish sabbath as the SEVENTH day but demands the Christian Sabbath is the EIGHTH day. He denies that Jesus rose again on the Seventh day of the week but asserts he rose again on the EIGHTH day.

Therefore Barnabas disputes your whole chronology of events just as I do.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I read the first chapter in your book dealing with Ignatius, Barnabas and Justin Martyr and then I went and read the Apostolic Fathers. After reading that first chapter and reading the what Ignatius and Barnabas said in context and then comparing it with how you interpreted them - what a mess. You took common sense and threw it out the door. It makes no difference if the Greek text has no "kuriakos" or "hemera" in them at the points you say. The context exposes your reasoning as twisted and completely a distortion of what these writers were saying.

Barnabas was saying in the clearest terms that the Seventh day application of creation has reference to the seventh thousand year yet to come where Israel is restored but it has nothing to do with the Christian. The Christian looks beyond the seventh thousand year day to the NEW BEGINNING of the Eight thousand year and that is precisely why we observe the EIGHTH day as the resurrection day NOT THE SEVENTH. Could not get more clear than what Barnabas says. Only a mind going in a with preconceived theory could miss his obvious point.

Likewise, with Ignatius, regardless if you take the shorter or longer reading. He rejects the Jewish Sabbath as the "old" or "ancient" manner and places the Christian under the "new" or EIGHTH day observance because it is the resurrection day. He mows down your interpretations like dead grass under the chopping blade of the lawn mower.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I read your chapter on the "Eighth day and the Sabbath pages 20-51! What a joke! You simply explained away what Barnabas and Ignatius said. The Eighth day is put in direct contrast to the seventh day Sabbath. The Lord's resurrection day is defined as the EIGHTH day and as the "LIVING" day - NEW LIFE - because Christ rose again victorious over death on that day and thus it is a "LIVING" Sabbath for Christians that looks forward to the EIGHTH thousand year when a NEW beginning occurs and this SEVENTH DAY SIN CURSED EARTH IS DESTROYED and a NEW and BETTER eternal Sabbath day with a NEW and BETTER creation comes into being and that is why, Barnabas says, We observe the EIGHTH day as the resurrection day, the LIVING day for Christians NOT THE SEVENTH.

Your book is total perversion of history, of the scriptures and of common sense.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

...............

"I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, thatis, a beginning of another world. WHEREFORE, also, we keep the EIGHTH day with joyfulness, the day also on wihch Jesus rose again from the dead."

..................

Therefore Barnabas disputes your whole chronology of events just as I do.

GE:
Dr Walter correctly concludes that the WHOLE ISSUE GOING ON THIS DAY OF OURS --- which by far is not the issue that went on in Barnabas's day --- depends on WHICH DAY— OF THE WEEK, Christ rose from the dead. Yes, Barnabas as well as Ignatius, take the day of Jesus’ Resurrection as point of departure for their plea for true CHRISTIAN observance of the Christian Day of Worship Rest. THAT, I have all through maintained is the ONLY basis for Christian Sabbaths’ observance. On that, or this point, Dr Walter and I are in agreement, let it be understood.

So everything Dr Walter rails against me is unnecessary and baseless.

There exists only one point of contention between Dr Walter and myself and between me and the rest of Christianity— THE CHRISTIANITY OF OUR OWN DAY, and that is ON WHICH DAY OF THE WEEK according to the creation-order of “ALL God’s works” Hb4:4 of both creation and redemption, did Christ actually, rise from the dead?

Then there is a second point of importance of difference between us, and that is, that to determine which day of the week Christ rose on, TWO factors should be brought into account, namely,
1) the New Testament, historical REALITY as in and through Jesus Christ Himself the Alfa and Omega of the creation of God, and
2) the LIVING ETERNAL PROPHETIC WORD OF GOD of the Old Testament Scriptures FULFILLED by “the all in all fulfilling Fullness of God” Jesus Christ, because these two are ONE and in no respect whatsoever in opposition.

To which may be added that any document after, or later than the New Testament, should be tested by the Scriptures; and the Scriptures never by it.

Therefore, with all due respect Dr Walter, your railing against me from the ‘Church fathers’ Barnabas and Ignatius— without once allowing an actual quote from me, is a railing against yourself.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dr. Cleavland Cox editor of the American Edition of The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, "Apostolic Fathers" concerning Ignatius dates his birth at 30 A.D. and his death at December 20th in December of 107 A.D. Hence, he would overlap all the apostles and would be in his upper twenties when most of the apostles were alive and would be nearly 40 years old at the time of Peter and Paul's death and the destruction of Jerusalem and would overlap the life of the Apostle John by 40more years.

GE:
Thank you, Dr Walter, for this information which must have seen the light the first time some time after the time that I worked on the post-New Testament Christian writings. In 'my days' Ignatius (the genuine) was dated earliest round about the 150s, even the late 160s! I would not contend any researcher on this issue (Being only God's poor plumber), but I will contend a false reading and or interpretation of the real documents with boiling lead in them ears and mouths of liars. We agree to the Resurrection being the reason for Christian celebration of the Christian Day of worship Rest. We disagree as to on which day of the week Jesus actually rose from the dead. Let us stick to that issue because I think energy spent on anything besides, is a waste of breath.

 

[Dr. Walter]

My friend, I read pages 20-51 where you dealt with the "eighth day" and the Sabbath. I know what you said. What you said and what Barnabas and Ignatius said are not the same. Both Barnabas and Ignatius make it clear that Jesus rose again on the EIGHTH day and they both contrast it with the SEVENTH day sabbath. Barnabas makes that point - the eighth day in his eschatalogical view represents the NEW beginning of a NEW creation after the seventh thousand year sabbath and it is for this reason he states that Christians observe the EIGHTH day in contrast to the SEVENTH day sabbath.

Can't get any clearer and no amount of wrangling that you do throughout those 30 pages changes what they said one iota. What they said is EASY to see, it is CLEAR and unambigious but your 30 pages are the most twisted gobblygook that tries to reverse and make them say the very opposite that I have ever read.

They reject your position that Jesus rose on the Jewish Sabbath but rather rose on the EIGHTH day. They use the term "EIGHTH" no doubt in reference to John 20:26 where Jesus appeared "eight" days later and therefore reject your interpretation of that passage. They obviously reject your whole chronological order of events on the first day of the Week just as I do.

GE:
Dr Walter correctly concludes that the WHOLE ISSUE GOING ON THIS DAY OF OURS --- which by far is not the issue that went on in Barnabas's day --- depends on WHICH DAY— OF THE WEEK, Christ rose from the dead. Yes, Barnabas as well as Ignatius, take the day of Jesus’ Resurrection as point of departure for their plea for true CHRISTIAN observance of the Christian Day of Worship Rest. THAT, I have all through maintained is the ONLY basis for Christian Sabbaths’ observance. On that, or this point, Dr Walter and I are in agreement, let it be understood.

So everything Dr Walter rails against me is unnecessary and baseless.

There exists only one point of contention between Dr Walter and myself and between me and the rest of Christianity— THE CHRISTIANITY OF OUR OWN DAY, and that is ON WHICH DAY OF THE WEEK according to the creation-order of “ALL God’s works” Hb4:4 of both creation and redemption, did Christ actually, rise from the dead?

Then there is a second point of importance of difference between us, and that is, that to determine which day of the week Christ rose on, TWO factors should be brought into account, namely,
1) the New Testament, historical REALITY as in and through Jesus Christ Himself the Alfa and Omega of the creation of God, and
2) the LIVING ETERNAL PROPHETIC WORD OF GOD of the Old Testament Scriptures FULFILLED by “the all in all fulfilling Fullness of God” Jesus Christ, because these two are ONE and in no respect whatsoever in opposition.

To which may be added that any document after, or later than the New Testament, should be tested by the Scriptures; and the Scriptures never by it.

Therefore, with all due respect Dr Walter, your railing against me from the ‘Church fathers’ Barnabas and Ignatius— without once allowing an actual quote from me, is a railing against yourself.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My friend, I read pages 20-51 where you dealt with the "eighth day" and the Sabbath. I know what you said. What you said and what Barnabas and Ignatius said are not the same. Both Barnabas and Ignatius make it clear that Jesus rose again on the EIGHTH day and they both contrast it with the SEVENTH day sabbath. Barnabas makes that point - the eighth day in his eschatalogical view represents the NEW beginning of a NEW creation after the seventh thousand year sabbath and it is for this reason he states that Christians observe the EIGHTH day in contrast to the SEVENTH day sabbath.

Can't get any clearer and no amount of wrangling that you do throughout those 30 pages changes what they said one iota. What they said is EASY to see, it is CLEAR and unambigious but your 30 pages are the most twisted gobblygook that tries to reverse and make them say the very opposite that I have ever read.

They reject your position that Jesus rose on the Jewish Sabbath but rather rose on the EIGHTH day. They use the term "EIGHTH" no doubt in reference to John 20:26 where Jesus appeared "eight" days later and therefore reject your interpretation of that passage. They obviously reject your whole chronological order of events on the first day of the Week just as I do.

GE:
Dr Wlater, as I opened your post, my wife called me, I'm going to work now, and as I went over to her to say good bye, it struck me. I told her, what a blunder have I made! She said, I'm here, do you realise, I'm saying good bye, Halloooo? Eish, I wake up only now to reality. I'm sorry, I apologise, I beg forgiveness. I had in mind Justin all the while Ignatius was the character .... Eish man. I feel like a sheep and am a sheep.

However, is 70AD not at least four decades too early?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My friend, I read pages 20-51 where you dealt with the "eighth day" and the Sabbath. I know what you said. What you said and what Barnabas and Ignatius said are not the same. Both Barnabas and Ignatius make it clear that Jesus rose again on the EIGHTH day and they both contrast it with the SEVENTH day sabbath. Barnabas makes that point - the eighth day in his eschatalogical view represents the NEW beginning of a NEW creation after the seventh thousand year sabbath and it is for this reason he states that Christians observe the EIGHTH day in contrast to the SEVENTH day sabbath.

Can't get any clearer and no amount of wrangling that you do throughout those 30 pages changes what they said one iota. What they said is EASY to see, it is CLEAR and unambigious but your 30 pages are the most twisted gobblygook that tries to reverse and make them say the very opposite that I have ever read.

They reject your position that Jesus rose on the Jewish Sabbath but rather rose on the EIGHTH day. They use the term "EIGHTH" no doubt in reference to John 20:26 where Jesus appeared "eight" days later and therefore reject your interpretation of that passage. They obviously reject your whole chronological order of events on the first day of the Week just as I do.

GE:
Dr Walter, you used the words, "contrast it (the eighth day) with the SEVENTH day sabbath". Yes, if I remember correctly, I used the words 'associated with'. Both words apply. Now they NEVER 'contrast' or 'associate' 'the eighth day' with the First Day of the week, or, with 'Sunday'. Which is remarkable and significantly meaningful. NOWHERE EVER. The association and the contrast made are between and of, the SABBATH and the Resurrection and the day of the Resurrection! And both Barnabas and Ignatius use individual apologetics or 'theology' to EXPLAIN the eschatological fulfillment through Jesus Christ of the Sabbath of the Old Testament under or as the New Testament and NT dispensation. NEVER a semblance of the First Day; not a glimpse of it; no hint at it.
THEN TRADITION took over, and began to tell us the Resurrection occurred on the First Day or "Day of the sun" -- JUSTIN! JUSTIN! JUSTIN! within one hundred years the whole thinking of Christianity was changed to 'contrast' and 'associate' the First Day "Sunday" and the Resurrection of Christ. THE WHOLE HISTORY of how the "dismal former (pagan) no-god, The DAY of the Lord Sun" (Gal4:10) entered Christian worship, was completed!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

.................They use the term "EIGHTH" no doubt in reference to John 20:26 where Jesus appeared "eight" days later ................

GE:
You explain or one hundredth just reasonably bound to Scripture 'prove' this BIG AND GLARING ''wrangling" of yours of God's Word! Let us see and let God see it!

PS:
Ja, we have been seeing it here clearly.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

A) Resurrection, “Sabbath’s”:
Mt:1-4— the INTENDED BUT THWARTED ‘visit’—
“But Sabbath’s-time late (‘opse de sabbatohn’) mid-afternoon as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week Mary Magdalene and the other Maty SET OUT TO SEE the grave. BUT SUDDENLY there was a great earthquake ….”.

Verses 5-10! 1-4 and 5-10 are two histories joined by the words, “….the angel explaining to the women, said, But don’t you be afraid, for I know you are looking for Jesus ….”
Verse 5a is the narrating angel’s rhetorical introductory remark for EVERYTHING contained in Matthew but in no other Gospel account. If 27:62 is taken for the beginning of the angel’s “informing to the women”, 28:1 must translate, The authorities of the world “Sealed the tomb and even set a watch, but despite (‘de’), in the end of the Sabbath Day….”.


B) ‘Trips’ SATURDAY NIGHT BEFORE ANY VISIT:

1) “After the Sabbath had gone through….” Mk16:1— nowhere near the tomb— the THREE women “bought spices”.

2) “Early darkness still ….” Jn20:1— “Mary Magdalene sees the stone rolled away.” Discovered the tomb was OPENED.


C) VISITS REALISED ON SUNDAY MORNING

1) “Earliest morning ….” Lk24:1,22-23— just after midnight— the women discovered the tomb was EMPTY.

2) “Very early dawn before sunrise ….” Mk16:2-8— Second visit after which all the women but Mary must have “fled from the tomb and they did not tell anybody anything they were so afraid” (but Mary Magdalene must have “had stood after at the door of the grave weeping” Jn20:11).

3) “Early on the First Day ….” Mk16:9— “Mary Magdalene had had stood after at the door of the grave weeping …. saw Jesus …. thought He was the gardener” Jn20:11, “HE AS THE RISEN APPEARED to Mary Magdalene FIRST.” Mk16:9.

4) “Explained the andgel to the women and told them…. (Mt28:5a) Then suddenly there was a great earthquake and the angel of the Lord descended from heaven …. And for fear of him the keepers like dead men were hit down by the brightness like lightning of his countenance …. But don’t YOU, be afraid, because I know— you, are looking for Jesus!” Not like those scoundrels who thought they could prevent Him from rising again! “He isn’t here, but He IS risen as He said (He would); come (convince yourself) and see the place where the Lord lay” if you like. But the women didn’t; now they understood, because so the Lord has led them to come to faith “And immediately they departed from the grave with God-fearing fear of great joy, and did run to bring his disciples word. And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them!”

That was Sunday morning AFTER Jesus “early”— about sunrise when a gardener should start his day— “appeared to Mary Magdalene first”. Can it be clearer? But they hate the light of God’s Word, and love the Sun’s Day more.

……NO SINGLE MINUSTEST IRRECONCILABILITY OR CONTRADICTION!

THE HONESTY OF ANY MAN CAN BE TESTED: "TO THE LAW AND TO THE PROPHETS"; THE INTEGRITY OF EVERY CHRISTIAN CONFESSION TO: Luke 24:25-26.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

SIX MAIN FACTORS
in determining the chronology of Jesus’ Last Passover

1) “According to the Scriptures” 1Cor16:3-5 the PASSOVER Scriptures of the Old Testament.

2) The God-given and therefore eschatological, imperative FULLNESS of the “three days” of the “three days and three nights”, “on the third day” of which “utter darkness” of “the plague (that) was upon Him”, “Christ rose again”.

3) ‘The Last Week’ with reference to Jn12:1,12, “Six days before Passover …. the next day”.

4) Literal time-descriptions of trips, visits, and two first Appearances during Sunday morning.
5) Prophetic significance of the Creation- and Exodus-Sabbath throughout the ‘old dispensation’ and the meaning it had with the view to the Resurrection and the Day of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. (Very much the same as point 2 but wider in scope of Scripture and history in the unfolding of God’s Eternal Purpose.)

6) Literal accuracy of simple and unambiguous statements of Scripture with special reference to Mt28:1, Hb4:9 and Col2:12-19.

 

[Dr. Walter]

My friend, I am glad to see you understand and defend justification by faith. However, in this matter below I think you greatly err. Barnabas does in fact make a direct association between the "EIGHTH" day and the day Christ rose again with the resurrection of the "eighth" day.

Indeed, that is his whole point! He argues that this present world is on a time table of seven thousand years after the seven days of creation, each day representing a thousand years. However, after the seventh thousand year is finished, he believes there will be an EIGHTH thousand year begun which is eternal where a NEW heaven and earth occur. He associates the "EIGHTH" with the day Jesus rose again. Indeed, he clearly and unmistakenly says that the very reason for observing the EIGHTH day as the resurrrection - NEW LIFE - is because it is parallel with the ETERNAL EIGHTH day of new beginnings.

This interpretation by Barnabas demands that he does not believe the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ occurred on the Seventh day of the week but on the EIGHTH day, or the day AFTER the Seventh day of the week which is his escatological way of saying SUNDAY or the first day of the week as the day of NEW BEGINNING and NEW LIFE.

GE:
Dr Walter, you used the words, "contrast it (the eighth day) with the SEVENTH day sabbath". Yes, if I remember correctly, I used the words 'associated with'. Both words apply. Now they NEVER 'contrast' or 'associate' 'the eighth day' with the First Day of the week, or, with 'Sunday'. Which is remarkable and significantly meaningful. NOWHERE EVER. The association and the contrast made are between and of, the SABBATH and the Resurrection and the day of the Resurrection! And both Barnabas and Ignatius use individual apologetics or 'theology' to EXPLAIN the eschatological fulfillment through Jesus Christ of the Sabbath of the Old Testament under or as the New Testament and NT dispensation. NEVER a semblance of the First Day; not a glimpse of it; no hint at it.
THEN TRADITION took over, and began to tell us the Resurrection occurred on the First Day or "Day of the sun" -- JUSTIN! JUSTIN! JUSTIN! within one hundred years the whole thinking of Christianity was changed to 'contrast' and 'associate' the First Day "Sunday" and the Resurrection of Christ. THE WHOLE HISTORY of how the "dismal former (pagan) no-god, The DAY of the Lord Sun" (Gal4:10) entered Christian worship, was completed!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

...... Barnabas does in fact make a direct association between the "EIGHTH" day and the day Christ rose again with the resurrection of the "eighth" day. Indeed, that is his whole point! ...............

GE:
Dr Walter, please; just look at yourself writing here; you are doing it— exactly what I'm saying— automatically— you're not even AWARE you are doing it! And I, understand it; I have sympathy with it; because I have been through it, myself. You are saying: “Barnabas does in fact make a direct association between the "EIGHTH" day and the day Christ rose again with the resurrection of the "eighth" day. Indeed, that is his whole point!”

WHERE IS BARNABAS TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK though? NOWHERE! BARNABAS SPEAKS WITH REFERENCE TO THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH!

The Sabbatharians (people like the SDAs and COG mob with spokesmen like the famous Dr Samuele Bacchiocchi— the whole bunch of Arminians) make capital of the identical same blunder the Sundaydarians make capital of for no one of them knowing at what advantage.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

....................

This interpretation by Barnabas demands that he does not believe the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ occurred on the Seventh day of the week but on the EIGHTH day, or the day AFTER the Seventh day of the week which is his escatological way of saying SUNDAY or the first day of the week as the day of NEW BEGINNING and NEW LIFE.

GE:
Of course then, here you are actually answering me, about HOW, Barnabas would have spoken of the First Day of the week. But all along meanwhile, THIS, was not how you actually have gone about 'proving' Barnabas speaks about the First Day of the week. Because all along meanwhile it was your PREMISE OR PRESUPPOSITION (actually, your axiom) Barnabas speaks about the First Day BECAUSE THE FIRST DAY WAS THE DAY of Jesus' Resurrection. ….suposedly.

NOW, you are ALSO averring like you do here, taking Barnabas' use of the word and concept of the 'eighth day' itself for premises that he speaks of the day after the Seventh Day, which of course is a flawed basis. Because that is NOT the case in two respects:

First, Barnabas speaks of the 'eighth day' NOT as a 'day of the week' or even as a day-cycle in any manner, but as a mystical and apocalyptical era of time;
and

Two, Barnabas effectively IDENTIFIES rather than arrange in chronological SEQUENCE, the 'seventh day' and the 'eighth day'. On other words, Barnabas ENIGMATICALLY 'theologises' about the Seventh Day Sabbath in the same manner as he does with the ‘eighth day’; he makes the Seventh Day Sabbath also, a mystical, apocalyptical era or even apocalyptical event per se.