The Glorious "Gospel of Election"

[Jarthur001]

So, you say that God willeth sin?? Sounds as if you also are among those who believe that God sent 9/11 upon us? Do you believe that God put Hitler in power to slay all the Jews also?
I know that God caused Israel to be overthrown for disobeidance and used people like Nebuchadnezzar to do so for His own purpose. I have several politicians around me and throughout this country who have a "wide stance" that are of the devil. Do you believe God put them in power also? Most of all, are Christians supposed to honor such people, if you think it is "ordained" of God?

I really like the way you all always run to the OT when its talking of Israel as a nation and use that to judge us today. (not) Many of you even use David's adultereous life to try and make an escape for Christians of today. Have you not read where the first was done away with to make room for the second?

God places all people in power. Can you show me where he does not? I will show you why I think it is so.

1Ki 11:23 ¶ And God stirred him up [another] adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:


1Ki 11:24 And he gathered men unto him, and became captain over a band, when David slew them [of Zobah]: and they went to Damascus, and dwelt therein, and reigned in Damascus.


1Ki 11:25 And he was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad [did]: and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria

1Ki 11:14 ¶ And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he [was] of the king's seed in Edom.

Proverbs 21

1The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

2 sam 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Dan 4 34And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

Isa 40: 6The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

7The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

 

[Brother Bob]

God places all people in power. Can you show me where he does not? I will show you why I think it is so.

Isa 40: 6The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

7The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

All about the nation of Israel, God's chosen people. Brought about by obeidance and disobeidance.

Can you show me where God raised up Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Saddam. According to your theory, elections or democracy means nothing. Is that right? Bush's struggle to have democracy in Iraq is wrong then for he is trying to do God's work isn't he?

James; Do you think God had a hand in Bhutto's death, for she almost for sure would of became the leader of Pakistan?? Do you believe that God just didn't want her as leader of Pakistan??

James; Do you believe that God had President Kennedy killed because God didn't want him as leader of US?

Please don't get offended at my questions for you told me to ask. I just don't believe God picks the leaders of the nations now and only picked them in OT, for Israel's sake.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

I see the drawing/convicting work of Holy Spirit as a separate work from the indwelling of Holy Spirit. I see the indwelling of Holy Spirit as something that comes with faith.

Thank goodness -- else you'd be a real Calvinist! :laugh: My "free will" contention is that the drawing and convicting are the Holy Spirit for sure but not the INDWELLING Holy Spirit. We have ears to hear and eyes to see without being indwelt.

We already spoke of this. I don't see the "first cause" of salvation as "election", so everything else doesn't apply.

I say first cause in that Calvies believe that God chose the elect before foreknowing anything at all about us. I disagree with that contention and expressed it as best I can perceive the Calvie view.

I understand and disagree. I believe man is a 2-part being, spirit and flesh. The "soul" is sometimes used interchangeably with "spirit", and sometimes to refer to the entire person/self.

It's for lack of kowledge that you do so. Heb says that the word can "divide the soul and spirit asunder" and here's how -- you believe one thing but are commited to another. Say that is the case in salvation. You believe on Christ but have never repented of the SINNER, only of the sin (which is called "sorrow of the world" 2Cor 7). Spiritually, you may think, emote, and desire Christianity but you have not converted your soul on account of still wanting to "do God's part yourself."

If you believe "all" are drawn, can you explain how many millions, even 100's of millions of people who lived and died without ever hearing the gospel?

I give credit to God for showing EVERY man and woman enough to be saved (Rom 1:20). That doesn't mean they hear about Christ. Nobody in the OT KNEW Christ at all! Key so far as I understand the issue are the 7 spirits of God that have gone out to ALL the world, Rev 5:6. To me, they are the 7 dispensations whereby God has revealed Himself to us and we our lives are seen Him (hence the 7 eyes and 7 horns/authorities). So, yes, God has drawn ALL -- every single accountable life and given them a chance so that they are "without excuse." What did you think that meant?

Since God declared the preaching of the gospel to be the method that He, God, in His wisdom, decided to use to bring people to salvation,(I Cor 1:21) how is it that "all" heard the gospel, when there is no evidence whatsoever of the gospel being preached in North American, South American, Australian continents until many hundreds of years after the death and resurrection of Christ?

It is true that that is God's preferred method of sharing Christ in the dispensation of grace. The special effect of that gospel is to both justify and sanctify (with the indwelling of the Spirit) believers. I believe He still saves men who call on Him through mere justification as in the OT. They will be resurrected and "delivered into the kingdom of His dear Son" in the MK to receive the fulness of earthly salvation -- the indwelling HS.

Who can change the hearts of men?

Is this a technical question? Cause I consider the "heart" to be the mind, emotions, and will. Can you change your mind? Sure! Can you change your conscience? Not easily. You do need help there else you will keep sliding down that slippery slope of self into more sin. You are in bondage to serve self, the SINNER, unless you convert.

What made the difference, skypair? Was it something inside of you that made the difference in your life? Or was it something God did that made the difference in your life?

Like I said in another post -- KNOW, RECKON, YIELD. I knew and was convicted of what I must do to be saved (Acts 4:12). Can anyone take that as a) God's word or b) rubbish?

I took it as God's word. I reckoned myself to be dead in sin. But on account of my repentance, I reckoned myself to be alive in Christ if I yielded the throne of my life -- my soul -- to God. It's a decision God says He would love to make for us. He does not desire any to perish but all to come to repentance (there's that word "all" again, eh?). But He doesn't and can't. He has left that to OUR sovereignty.

But when I did, He put something inside me, like you suggest, that made me different! His offer of Christ made a "general" difference -- the coming of Christ made a difference in every man's life since. Receiving Him made the specific change in my life.

Did God change your heart, or did you change your heart of your own "free-will"?

Based on what I just said, I changed my mind and God changed my soul reprogramming me from enmity to desire for His will. Soul and spirit are 2 different things and, by lumping them together, you can only come up with "strange fire."

skypair

 

[skypair]

I have several friends at church that claim that "all" have heard the gospel. I've tried to explain that can't be possible, but they will have none of it. I don't understand how they can believe that.

There are 2 things that you don't take into consideration: 1) God has "implanted" in our souls self awareness and God/"Authority" awareness. This is really what conscience is, right?

2) God has sent out "to all the earth" 7 spirits (Rev 5:6) having 7 eyes by which we know God sees us and we sense Him and 7 horns of authority by which He directs our paths to Him.

This is all accounted for in Rom 1:20 as to why man is "without excuse" when he denies the Creator and turns to objects made like men.

skypair

 

[skypair]

The most beautiful difference between C/A is that all who believe their choice is what set them apart from other sinners were also elected just as much as anyone who believes God chose them. :thumbs:

Very true in most cases. I believe that we are just different parts of the body where one knows one thing and another needs another view. In particular, I have no problem at all with the sanctification process accomplished through Reform/Calvinist churches. My problem is in whether or not they bring IN the sheep. Most that I have seen in those churches presume to be saved passively (by doing nothing) and go about to sanctify the unholy SELF that has not been committed to the hands of God yet.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Romans 13:2 is talking about obeying the laws of government. I'm not sure what that has to do with the other verses we were discussing.

AKA one of the 7 spirits of God gone out into all the earth, Rev 5:6.

I don't know why God allows sin, but that doesn't mean that God's will can be resisted. If God wills something to happen, then it will happen.

And so you would allow that, if it is His will, He could allow man to be sovereign over SELF? He wouldn't be limited in any way by His nature or character or any such thing from willing to do that, would He?

Well, that is, indeed, the case. God's will appears to be resisted for the very reason that He has allowed it ever since He created Adam. To say that is is not brings us back to the issue of the "gospel of election" again. If God's will is ALWAYS done, then you have believed the gospel of election" wherein the only true necessity of salvation is that God choose you. All other facts and events are irrelevant and superfluous.

skypair

 

[skypair]

What you refer to as general revelation, I believe is really the Gospel in the stars. It's a fascinating study.

Good ole D. James Kennedy (Presby) did a sermon on it, web. Interesting but not compelling. However, that seems to be the common thread of civilization post-Babel --- building astronomical towers to consult the stars/constellations for wisdom regarding God.

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

All about the nation of Israel, God's chosen people. Brought about by obeidance and disobeidance.

BBob,

Not so Bob.

5And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

6The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

7The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

8The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

9O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

10Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

11He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

12Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

13Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

14With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

15Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

16And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.

17All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

18To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

19The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.

20He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.

21Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

23That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

24Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.

25To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

26Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

27Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God?

28Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

29He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.

30Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:

31But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

That says alot Bob.

As it turns out Bob, God is in control of all things. right?

 

[Brother Bob]

Not so Bob.



That says alot Bob.

As it turns out Bob, God is in control of all things. right?

God allows a lot also James, seems He allows more than he controls when it comes to man.
That is what God meant when He said that there is no power but His.

Rom 13:1¶Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Here He speaks of who is ordained of Him.

Rom 13:4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

He is talking about the creation of man James. Even Israel did not have a King here on earth until they cried unto God to give them a King and God gave them Saul.

Do you think God did this also.

1Sa 8:8According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

All about Israel James. You never answered the questions I ask you. I know they are tough questions but if God chooses all the leaders, even unto today, then there must of been a reason for Bhutto dieing.

Do you believe in democracy James where the people have the will by majority.
BBob,

 

[Jarthur001]

Can you show me where God raised up Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Saddam. According to your theory, elections or democracy means nothing. Is that right? Bush's struggle to have democracy in Iraq is wrong then for he is trying to do God's work isn't he?


BBob,

No theory Bob, tis the Bible...no?

Bush?

Nope...all things play right into the plan of God, even if it is wrong.

Notice this please.

Who sent Joseph to Egypt? Did his brothers not sell him as a slave? They made the choice..right? No one forced them...did they?

well....yes they sinned and will stand before God for their action in that sin, but God also know it would happen, and God used the sins of the brothers to bring about His plan. His plan was to have Joseph in Egypt.

4And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.

5Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.

6For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.

7And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

8So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

So you see...both are true.

 

[Brother Bob]

No theory Bob, tis the Bible...no?

Bush?

Nope...all things play right into the plan of God, even if it is wrong.

Notice this please.

Who sent Joseph to Egypt? Did his brothers not sell him as a slave? They made the choice..right? No one forced them...did they?

well....yes they sinned and will stand before God for their action in that sin, but God also know it would happen, and God used the sins of the brothers to bring about His plan. His plan was to have Joseph in Egypt.



So you see...both are true.

I agree wholeheartly James when it comes to Israel. In this country we elect by the majority. Is that bibical James that the majority is right, or Godly?

God has all power and if it serves His purpose to have someone as a leader of a nation, He does it. I will agree with that much James.
BBob,

 

[Jarthur001]

All about Israel James. You never answered the questions I ask you. I know they are tough questions but if God chooses all the leaders, even unto today, then there must of been a reason for Bhutto dieing.

Do you believe in democracy James where the people have the will by majority.
BBob,

Bob,

The church is Gods people too. They are the real Israel. God does not change. What you see Him do in the OT, you will also see him do today.

Do you believe in democracy James where the people have the will by majority.

As it turns out I believe the best type of government that man can run is a republic as is our own nation. But let it be known this is but a product of man. I belong to a kingdom, and Christ is my King. No democracy is in a kingdom.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob,

The church is Gods people too. They are the real Israel. God does not change. What you see Him do in the OT, you will also see him do today.

I agree we are Israel also, as was the remnant of the OT.


As it turns out I believe the best type of government that man can run is a republic as is our own nation. But let it be known this is but a product of man.
It was also allowed to happen by God, will you agree?

I belong to a kingdom, and Christ is my King. No democracy is in a kingdom.

Yes, but we were discussing the world. God intermingled with them in the OT, more of a "hands on" than now. We are under the New Covenant and God uses His Spirit of indwelling in us of which they did not have it indwelling in them.

BBob,

 

[canadyjd]

I give credit to God for showing EVERY man and woman enough to be saved (Rom 1:20)......So, yes, God has drawn ALL -- every single accountable life and given them a chance so that they are "without excuse." What did you think that meant?

You are not being particularly generous in the "credit" you "give" to God. The drawing to Holy Spirit is a specific work in relationship to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Holy Spirit is "drawing" people through Jesus Christ. You have combined general revelation (which scripture tells us saved no one because all rejected it) with the specific revelation of Jesus Christ.

Like I said in another post -- KNOW, RECKON, YIELD. I knew and was convicted of what I must do to be saved (Acts 4:12). Can anyone take that as a) God's word or b) rubbish?

I took it as God's word. I reckoned myself to be dead in sin. But on account of my repentance, I reckoned myself to be alive in Christ if I yielded the throne of my life -- my soul -- to God. It's a decision God says He would love to make for us. He does not desire any to perish but all to come to repentance (there's that word "all" again, eh?). But He doesn't and can't. He has left that to OUR sovereignty.

So, you believe something in you made the difference in salvation, and I believe God makes the difference in salvation. I believe God is sovereign, and you believe man is sovereign. We understand each other, and I couldn't disagree with you more.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Yes, but we were discussing the world. God intermingled with them in the OT, more of a "hands on" than now.

How is it, then, that God "causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."?(Rom. 8:28). "All means all", right? Seems God may be a little more active in the affairs of men than you think.

peace to youraying:

 

[Brother Bob]

How is it, then, that God "causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."?(Rom. 8:28). "All means all", right? Seems God may be a little more active in the affairs of men than you think.

peace to youraying:

Glad to see you believe all means all. Now you are talking. Not often you see a Calvinist say that! I said when it served God's purpose He could do what ever He wants, after all, He is God.

One question if I may, did God have Bhutto killed so she did not become the head of Pakistan???

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

BBob,

 

[Jarthur001]

One question if I may, did God have Bhutto killed so she did not become the head of Pakistan???

Bob,

Not you nor I knows why God does what He does in all cases. For us to guess would be meaningless. Sometimes, as time passes we then begin to understand Gods plan.

God was full aware of all that went on doing the killing. He know of the planning and the very day it happened, He know it would happen. God had the power to stop it, but He did not. Why? I don't know why. Did God give the shooter the gun? Maybe. I don't know that either. All I can tell you for sure is God know it would happen, and God did not stop it, because for some reason He allowed it to take place as part of His plan. We may never know why.

If you have a child and you do not feed the child, but you have all the power in you to feed the child, and you have all the food needed to feed the child, but you do not feed the child and you know by not feeding the child that the child will die and because you choose on your own not to feed the child and you and your food is the only hope to save the child, but still you choose not to feed the child....and then the child dies........

Would your local government change you?

 

[Jarthur001]

Glad to see you believe all means all. Now you are talking. Not often you see a Calvinist say that! I said when it served God's purpose He could do what ever He wants, after all, He is God.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

BBob,

All does mean all. But all of what? The bible tells us.

BTW...I and ALL Calvinist believe these verses, and we have gone over these 100s of times.

 

[Frogman]

Projection/Justification

Sadly today we often see man blaming God and even Satan for the evil in the world. All too often the root is the flesh of man, yet we pretend there is a force, either of God's will, or that of Satan, being served.

Are we not as yet still bound in our grave clothes?

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

[Brother Bob]

Sadly today we often see man blaming God and even Satan for the evil in the world. All too often the root is the flesh of man, yet we pretend there is a force, either of God's will, or that of Satan, being served.

Are we not as yet still bound in our grave clothes?

bro. Dallas:wavey:

I agree Frogman......:thumbs: