The Glorious "Gospel of Election"

[Brother Bob]

Bob,

Not you nor I knows why God does what He does in all cases. For us to guess would be meaningless. Sometimes, as time passes we then begin to understand Gods plan.

God was full aware of all that went on doing the killing. He know of the planning and the very day it happened, He know it would happen. God had the power to stop it, but He did not. Why? I don't know why. Did God give the shooter the gun? Maybe. I don't know that either. All I can tell you for sure is God know it would happen, and God did not stop it, because for some reason He allowed it to take place as part of His plan. We may never know why.

If you have a child and you do not feed the child, but you have all the power in you to feed the child, and you have all the food needed to feed the child, but you do not feed the child and you know by not feeding the child that the child will die and because you choose on your own not to feed the child and you and your food is the only hope to save the child, but still you choose not to feed the child....and then the child dies........

Would your local government change you?

I can't argue with this James. Of course God knows all things and I agree that neither you or I or anyone else knows what hand God has in everything.
This came up over those who have power over you. I believe that scripture is talking about God and His ministers and workers, but still through God.
We are supposed to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars, but it all don't belong to Ceasar. Ceasar would take it all, if we let him. I believe in paying my taxes, obeying the laws of the land, until they go against the Law of God. So you see, it is God that has all power, not some president we put in to lie and steal from us.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

All does mean all. But all of what? The bible tells us.

BTW...I and ALL Calvinist believe these verses, and we have gone over these 100s of times.

I know and we still don't agree............:laugh:

BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

Are we not as yet still bound in our grave clothes?

Nope! Not unless Christ is still bound, as well in His grave C\clothes!

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (Eph. 2:4-6 - NKJV)

1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. (Col. 2:1 - TNIV)

And the last I checked, from what I've read, I believe the Lord left His grave clothes behind, in the tomb!

Although over the years, I have seen a lot of Christians that seem to want to become "grave robbers" for shrouds, for some reason!

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Nope! Not unless Christ is still bound, as well in His!

Ed

That is the inward man Ed. This outward man (flesh) is still waiting on his change. If we already had our fleshly change, we wouldn't have to die.

Rom 8:10And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:23And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

BBob,

 

[Jarthur001]

I can't argue with this James. Of course God knows all things and I agree that neither you or I or anyone else knows what hand God has in everything.
This came up over those who have power over you. I believe that scripture is talking about God and His ministers and workers, but still through God.
We are supposed to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars, but it all don't belong to Ceasar. Ceasar would take it all, if we let him. I believe in paying my taxes, obeying the laws of the land, until they go against the Law of God. So you see, it is God that has all power, not some president we put in to lie and steal from us.

BBob,

Bob,

If you have the time, listen to this by John Piper. Its a make believe story by Piper showing how God works through the bad to make it to His glory. Its a very good story and worth a listen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EnfxHQYWQQ

 

[Jarthur001]

I know and we still don't agree............:laugh:

BBob,

:wavey: :godisgood: :thumbs:


peace Bob...

 

[Brother Bob]

:wavey: :godisgood:


peace Bob...

:thumbs:..............:wavey:

 

[jne1611]

So, in the bold print, was this not for a cause that God wanted to happen the first to prove that God ruled and second that His name would be declared throughout the earth. Were not both of these so that a purpose of God would happen??
Doe you apply this same application to all that are in government? Such as Larry Craig for starters, there are much worse than he is. Take Hitler for instance, Stalin or Bush. Did God raise up Saddam and then raise up Bush to kill him? I thought God said, I have chosen you out of the world, and you are no longer of the world. Also, the world will love its own, but they will hate you?? Not being quarrellsome and please don't take it that way. I just would like to understand what you believe about all this.

So, you say that God willeth sin?? Sounds as if you also are among those who believe that God sent 9/11 upon us? Do you believe that God put Hitler in power to slay all the Jews also?
I know that God caused Israel to be overthrown for disobeidance and used people like Nebuchadnezzar to do so for His own purpose. I have several politicians around me and throughout this country who have a "wide stance" that are of the devil. Do you believe God put them in power also? Most of all, are Christians supposed to honor such people, if you think it is "ordained" of God?

I really like the way you all always run to the OT when its talking of Israel as a nation and use that to judge us today. (not) Many of you even use David's adultereous life to try and make an escape for Christians of today. Have you not read where the first was done away with to make room for the second?

The bold print is the key I believe. God appointed him to the position of king. He was not a godly king. He threw the three Hebrews into the fiery furnace.
till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.

Notice the words "He appointeth". That is God appoints the leaders in the earth. Pharaoh persecuted and killed many of God's people, yet he was raised up by God. Hitler persecuted and killed the Jews. I'll agree it was awful, but Bro. Bob, in the Old Testament those same people were delivered by the hand of God to be persecuted and killed by their enemies. So my answer is yes. God had a time for these people to exist just as much as any other. Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

As to your last comment about using the Old Testament? Those things are as much the Word of God as any Scripture in the Bible. And when God Almighty says that He appointeth whomsoever He Wills to rule over the kingdom of men. I believe Him. I'll remind you that those ten commandments are a part of the Old testament, do you think they have been done away? No hostility intended, but I feel that you think it wrong to reference the Old Testament ? Is that right?

I am not going to argue about the sin thing with you on this thread, we will save that for another.raying::smilewinkgrin:

 

[Brother Bob]

The bold print is the key I believe. God appointed him to the position of king. He was not a godly king. He threw the three Hebrews into the fiery furnace.
till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.

Notice the words "He appointeth". That is God appoints the leaders in the earth. Pharaoh persecuted and killed many of God's people, yet he was raised up by God. Hitler persecuted and killed the Jews. I'll agree it was awful, but Bro. Bob, in the Old Testament those same people were delivered by the hand of God to be persecuted and killed by their enemies. So my answer is yes. God had a time for these people to exist just as much as any other. Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

As to your last comment about using the Old Testament? Those things are as much the Word of God as any Scripture in the Bible. And when God Almighty says that He appointeth whomsoever He Wills to rule over the kingdom of men. I believe Him. I'll remind you that those ten commandments are a part of the Old testament, do you think they have been done away? No hostility intended, but I feel that you think it wrong to reference the Old Testament ? Is that right?

I am not going to argue about the sin thing with you on this thread, we will save that for another.raying::smilewinkgrin:

No, I just would like you to use present time or NT every once in a while to prove your argument, like right now, can you name a King, Leader or Ruler in today's time that God put in rule????

Let me ask you again, have you not read where the first was done away with to make room for the second??

Sure I believe in the Commandments, but I believe they were all mentioned in the NT.

BBob,

 

[Frogman]

Dear Brother Ed,
We are still in our grave clothes.
bro. Dallas:wavey:

Nope! Not unless Christ is still bound, as well in His grave C\clothes!And the last I checked, from what I've read, I believe the Lord left His grave clothes behind, in the tomb!

Although over the years, I have seen a lot of Christians that seem to want to become "grave robbers" for shrouds, for some reason!

Ed

 

[jne1611]

No, I just would like you to use present time or NT every once in a while to prove your argument, like right now, can you name a King, Leader or Ruler in today's time that God put in rule????

Let me ask you again, have you not read where the first was done away with to make room for the second??

Sure I believe in the Commandments, but I believe they were all mentioned in the NT.

BBob,

I can no more find names in the Bible of the modern time that God appointed any more than I could find your name or mine as being a child of God. I just read where believers in Christ are saved & claim God's word on it. And like I said God says He appointeth whomsoever He Wills to rule in the kingdom of men. I believe that. I believe He appoints good men and bad men. They are ALL appointed of God according to what He said about it. Do you find any NT verses that say He has stopped appointing them?
And yes I know that the Old covenant has been replaced by the New. And you know WELL that I do not only use Old Testament Scriptures to make my case.

 

[Brother Bob]

I can no more find names in the Bible of the modern time that God appointed any more than I could find your name or mine as being a child of God. I just read where believers in Christ are saved & claim God's word on it. And like I said God says He appointeth whomsoever He Wills to rule in the kingdom of men. I believe that. I believe He appoints good men and bad men. They are ALL appointed of God according to what He said about it. Do you find any NT verses that say He has stopped appointing them?
And yes I know that the Old covenant has been replaced by the New. And you know WELL that I do not only use Old Testament Scriptures to make my case. So don't make it look as I do.

Do you believe that 9/11 was attributed to God, for those who flew the planes were following their leaders commands?? So, did they do the will of God??
Are you prepared for this jne; you can see where it is going. I just want you to be sure that you are willing to stand by what you have said that God picks the good and bad leaders of the earth. To make sure I quote you exactly I will paste your remarks:

I said God says He appointeth whomsoever He Wills to rule in the kingdom of men. I believe that. I believe He appoints good men and bad men. They are ALL appointed of God according to what He said about it

Was God in on Kennedy's death also?


I have already told James and will tell you that if God has a purpose to appoint someone He will, He is God and can do whatever He wants. This started because I do not believe God commanded us to follow the leaders of the world, but to follow the leaders of the Church of which they receive their power from Him and He is the only Power. Satan has power, did God give that power to Satan or just allow him to have it? I believe we are to keep the laws of the Land, as long as they are not against the Laws of God.

I am saying this scripture is talking about God and His ministers and leaders.

Hbr 13:17Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.

BBob,
,

 

[jne1611]

Do you believe that 9/11 was attributed to God, for those who flew the planes were following their leaders commands?? So, did they do the will of God??
Are you prepared for this jne; you can see where it is going. I just want you to be sure that you are willing to stand by what you have said that God picks the good and bad leaders of the earth. To make sure I quote you exactly I will paste your remarks:

Was God in on Kennedy's death also?

BBob,

Bro. Bob. God destroyed the WHOLE race of men in a flood of waters, burnt Sodom to ashes, etc. Great events in the Word of God. Events mentioned and used in the NT for examples. 9/11 was mild compared to these things.

For the record. I believe that if God had not Willed these things you mentioned, they could never have come to pass.

Bro. Bob. Paul in the New Testament teaches us that Satan himself is restrained by God. If Satan does not have free course to do above and beyond God's dominion, I know men do not.

I feel I may be steering this thread off course. Maybe we can talk of this more another time. I have not had much time to get on here lately.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bro. Bob. God destroyed the WHOLE race of men in a flood of waters, burnt Sodom to ashes, etc. Great events in the Word of God. Events mentioned and used in the NT for examples. 9/11 was mild compared to these things.

For the record. I believe that if God had not Willed these things you mentioned, they could never have come to pass.

Bro. Bob. Paul in the New Testament teaches us that Satan himself is restrained by God. If Satan does not have free course to do above and beyond God's dominion, I know men do not.

jne; I am going to stop this discussion here. I do not believe God had a part in 9/11.

God allows things and let them happen, but this does not mean He takes a part in them. This was done by evil men and Satan.

We are not to obey such men if it is sin period. I know you mean well, but think you have just worded this wrong. :wavey:

God Bless,

BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

Pretty sure the phrase "glorious gospel" occurs only two times in any 'standard' version of Scripture. And I'm also pretty sure that the phrase "gospel of _____" (fill in the variations) appears about 30 times in the same.

I'm absolutely sure the phrase "gospel of election" never occurs in any standard version, but can only be a 'theological construct' used by its 'advocates' in a positive sense, and by its 'detractors' in a negative sense.

Is there anything wrong with using 'Biblical terminology', when attempting to answer 'Biblical questions'?

Just wonderin'!

Ed

 

[skypair]

You are not being particularly generous in the "credit" you "give" to God. The drawing to Holy Spirit is a specific work in relationship to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Holy Spirit is "drawing" people through Jesus Christ. You have combined general revelation (which scripture tells us saved no one because all rejected it) with the specific revelation of Jesus Christ.

If it is "specific work in relationship to the gospel of Jesus Christ," as I agree it is, how does it become "general" to some people? Why isn't that "specific work" drawing ALL people? It seems like you are being particularly UNgenerous, jd.

So, you believe something in you made the difference in salvation, and I believe God makes the difference in salvation.

The something you refer to was not there before I heard the gospel, jd. But what was "in me" was like any other notion I "entertain" and "roll around" in my mind comparing it with my conscience -- soul examining spirit as occurs upon every decision we make.

I believe God is sovereign, and you believe man is sovereign. We understand each other, and I couldn't disagree with you more.

Now you are being irrational -- giving up. What you believe is that God is sovereign in EVERYTHING. What I believe is that on an individual level, God gives each of us sovereignty over his/her own destiny. You believe this but only in the negative sense, right? Why can't you see it is true in the positive sense as well?? Do you have any independent knowledge that others could not hear the gospel and could not respond to the gospel?

No -- you don't. You have Calvin's word on it. You can't know who is saved or not -- you can't know who is elect and who isn't. What you have is someone's OPINION that only the "elect" can hear and receive the gospel and that God is the One Who decides that.

Please, jd -- consult the Spirit before you talk about God's or man's sovereignty. Are you saved in spite of yourSELF and how you respond to God or because of yourself and how you responded to God?

skypair

peace to youraying:[/QUOTE]

 

[skypair]

The bold print is the key I believe. God appointed him to the position of king. He was not a godly king. He threw the three Hebrews into the fiery furnace. till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.

Notice the words "He appointeth". That is God appoints the leaders in the earth.

I would agree -- but according to His promises. Yes, He appoints whom He will by the working of His covenants and laws. Have you not also heard "you get the President you deserve?" That means it is also in the hands of MEN who gets "appointed."

The Jews are in "unbelief" now. What kind of ruler do they deserve? What kind of rulers have they gotten? Mainly you are not connecting "cause" with "effect" when you talk about God's "appoointments."

skypair

 

[skypair]

Dear Brother Ed,
We are still in our grave clothes.
bro. Dallas:wavey:

I pray you are not -- neither in the Calvinist sense nor in the literal sense! Heavens! What are you saying?

skypair

 

[skypair]

jne; I am going to stop this discussion here. I do not believe God had a part in 9/11.

God allows things and let them happen, but this does not mean He takes a part in them. This was done by evil men and Satan.

But God forewarned us -- Isa 21. And it is the forewarning of the tribulation -- the "threshing floor" -- soon to follow!

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

I pray you are not -- neither in the Calvinist sense nor in the literal sense! Heavens! What are you saying?

skypair

I think Frog is saying that he has to die before the change comes to the flesh. He is saying that his flesh is perishing every day of his life. IMO

BBob,