thisnumbersdisconnected
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Who's confused??
That's not what the Thousand Year Reign is about. Better know whereof you speak before opening your lips.
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The Heresy of Investigative Judgment
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That's not what the Thousand Year Reign is about. Better know whereof you speak before opening your lips.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Dan 7:22 "judgment was passed in favor of the saints" -
These are the saints living after the fall of Pagan Rome described in Dan 7-8 - obviously. And during the time when the 11th horn that rises out of the division of Pagan Rome - at the fall of pagan Rome - dominating that same area of globe - as the next replacing empire/entity to rule over what later became known a the "Holy Roman Empire".
in Christ,
Bob
Read the actual Bible.DHK said:
These are the saints living after the fall of Pagan Rome described in Dan 7-8 - obviously. And during the time when the 11th horn that rises out of the division of Pagan Rome - at the fall of pagan Rome - dominating that same area of globe - as the next replacing empire/entity to rule over what later became known a the "Holy Roman Empire".
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
And I am not Amillennial - And this view of Dan 7 has nothing to do with that idea.
Hint: It is called the "historicist" model and it does not agree with the Amillennial or futurist model.
In any case just as all Christians know the 70 weeks of Dan 9 are in fact "70 weeks of years - = 490" in Apocalyptic time - a day stands for a year.
Hence the 1260 years of Dan 7, of Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13 all speaking of the same period of time.
The 490 years of Daniel 9.
The 2300 years of Daniel 8.
Turns out - that is how apocalyptic time lines work.
I can't be blamed for agreeing with the Protestant Reformers who also admitted to the 1260 year timeline of Dan 7.
Sola Scriptura testing of all doctrine my friends.
in Christ,
Bob
Hint: It is called the "historicist" model and it does not agree with the Amillennial or futurist model.
In any case just as all Christians know the 70 weeks of Dan 9 are in fact "70 weeks of years - = 490" in Apocalyptic time - a day stands for a year.
Hence the 1260 years of Dan 7, of Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13 all speaking of the same period of time.
The 490 years of Daniel 9.
The 2300 years of Daniel 8.
Turns out - that is how apocalyptic time lines work.
I can't be blamed for agreeing with the Protestant Reformers who also admitted to the 1260 year timeline of Dan 7.
Sola Scriptura testing of all doctrine my friends.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Are you even reading the same thread??
Did you mean to post that here??
in Christ,
Bob
See how this works out. During the seven year period called the Tribulation, there are two witnesses that prophesy for a period of 42 months or 1260 days. (You say years??).
First, has any man ever lived one thousand two hundred sixty years? No!
Second, how do you fit 1260 years in a seven year time frame?
Third, how do you make 1260 years equal to 42 months?
You have too many contradictions to make this work Bob.
Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
During the 1260 years of the dark ages - the two witnesses that the bible identifies testify under oppression and persecution.
2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God"
2Peter 1:20-21 "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke from God"
Zech 4
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the Word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
Ps 119:105 "Thy WORD is a Lamp unto My feet and a LIGHT unto my Path"
Heb 4:12 "The WORD of God is living and active and sharper than a two edged sword"
The two witnesses are the "Word of God" - and it was denied the people, burned, banned - chained to the pulpit... until the printing press began churning out Bibles in the language of the people - it started in the mid 15th century.
The dark ages were a time not only of the oppression of the saints - but also of suppression of the Bible.
As it turns out -- after the fall of Pagan Rome - we have the rise of Papal Rome.
Papal Rome does persecute the saints, does suppress the Bible, does dominate for 1260 years, does become larger than any of the original 10 divisions of Pagan Rome - larger in fact than all of them combined Dan 7:20, it does make claims to be equal to God Dan 8:11 "God on earth" as the Pope said - does encounter a "deadly wound" in 1798 as Rev 13 predicts - at the end of those 1260 years.
in Christ,
Bob
2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God"
2Peter 1:20-21 "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke from God"
Zech 4
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the Word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
Ps 119:105 "Thy WORD is a Lamp unto My feet and a LIGHT unto my Path"
Heb 4:12 "The WORD of God is living and active and sharper than a two edged sword"
The two witnesses are the "Word of God" - and it was denied the people, burned, banned - chained to the pulpit... until the printing press began churning out Bibles in the language of the people - it started in the mid 15th century.
The dark ages were a time not only of the oppression of the saints - but also of suppression of the Bible.
As it turns out -- after the fall of Pagan Rome - we have the rise of Papal Rome.
Papal Rome does persecute the saints, does suppress the Bible, does dominate for 1260 years, does become larger than any of the original 10 divisions of Pagan Rome - larger in fact than all of them combined Dan 7:20, it does make claims to be equal to God Dan 8:11 "God on earth" as the Pope said - does encounter a "deadly wound" in 1798 as Rev 13 predicts - at the end of those 1260 years.
in Christ,
Bob
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You really don't believe the Bible here do you?
The two witnesses are witnesses! That is they are real people who witness for Christ and testify of him. They do this for 1260 days as the Scriptures say. Believe the Bible or deny it Bob. Which is it? You don't have much choice. It seems to me that you have left yourself back in the Dark Ages and are stuck there. Time has moved on without you.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I believe the "actual bible" as it turns out.
John 5:39
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Zech 4
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the Word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
Ps 119:105 "Thy WORD is a Lamp unto My feet and a LIGHT unto my Path"
John 5:39
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Zech 4
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the Word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
Ps 119:105 "Thy WORD is a Lamp unto My feet and a LIGHT unto my Path"
You don't believe the Bible at all Bob. What you believe here is pure speculation colored with the musings of the false prophetess EGW. Sad!
Verse 4: What are these my Lord?
The answer is given later in the chapter:
Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
They are people, Bob, not a book. It is not the Bible that stands beside the Lord.
These are the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord.
The branches represent the priests and kings of Israel, with a special allusion to Joshua and Zeruabbabel of that time. They typified the Messiah as both Priest and King.
The Lampstand was to be Israel--a light to all nations--potentially in Zechariah's time. Perhaps there was a partial fulfillment here.
The actual fulfillment will be found in the two witnesses of Rev.11:3-6 of the Tribulation Period. Those are the two anointed ones, full of the Holy Spirit. The Millennial Reign of Christ will follow and Israel will be a light to all nations. She will have defeated all nations just previous to the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom.
My interpretation is based on Scripture, is totally Scriptural, and not based on philosophical musings and speculation such as yours is. I can back it up with the Bible, whereas you must turn to history which changes with every passing moment. Pitiful!
The Word of God never changes; but Bob and his history changes ever!
And your <interpretation> DHK, to my understanding, is greater confusion than Bob Ryan's.
What to me is incomprehensible about your view, DHK, is that you differ very little if at all with BobRyan's AFTER-CHRIST'S ADVENT CONTINUING RULE OF SIN AND CORRUPTIBILITY.
You two leave one with a choice between a fortnight and fourteen days.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
John 5:39
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Zech 4
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the Word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
Ps 119:105 "Thy WORD is a Lamp unto My feet and a LIGHT unto my Path"
Your response to the texts qouted above for the two witnesses and the Bible interpreting itself - is nothing if not "consistent".
I am happy to take the Bible side of that discussion. You are welcome to the vitriol side and I am sure there will be one or two here that will find that to be the more comfortable side to take.
The text tells us what they are --
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the Word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
No amount of vitriol or acrimony will delete the text.
The Bible is its own interpreter.
in Christ,
Bob
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Zech 4
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the Word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
Ps 119:105 "Thy WORD is a Lamp unto My feet and a LIGHT unto my Path"
Your response to the texts qouted above for the two witnesses and the Bible interpreting itself - is nothing if not "consistent".
I am happy to take the Bible side of that discussion. You are welcome to the vitriol side and I am sure there will be one or two here that will find that to be the more comfortable side to take.
The text tells us what they are --
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the Word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
No amount of vitriol or acrimony will delete the text.
The Bible is its own interpreter.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Someone asked recently on this thread that I note use so much Bible to answer the question from Dan 7 and use my "own words".
- i keep giving several examples "in my own words" where the key elements to the Investigative doctrine show up in Daniel 7.
1. Investigative: in the form of "books opened" - data reviewed, evidence for the myriads and myriads of that court room.
2. The court of Dan 7:9-10 and the judgment of Dan 7:22-27.
3. Fact that it is preAdvent as we saw clearly in vs 27.
4. The fat that it takes place after the 1260 years of dark ages (times time and 1/2 time) persecution of the saints by the little horn. (I think even the Protestant reformers get the identity of that little horn.) - which is after the division of Rome into 10 parts and after the rise of an 11th horn power from within the Roman Empire that is to rule for 1260 years during the dark ages.
5. Saints are included as the subject of the Judgment for Dan 7:22 says "Judgment was passed in favor of the saints" NASB.
in Christ,
Bob
- i keep giving several examples "in my own words" where the key elements to the Investigative doctrine show up in Daniel 7.
1. Investigative: in the form of "books opened" - data reviewed, evidence for the myriads and myriads of that court room.
2. The court of Dan 7:9-10 and the judgment of Dan 7:22-27.
3. Fact that it is preAdvent as we saw clearly in vs 27.
4. The fat that it takes place after the 1260 years of dark ages (times time and 1/2 time) persecution of the saints by the little horn. (I think even the Protestant reformers get the identity of that little horn.) - which is after the division of Rome into 10 parts and after the rise of an 11th horn power from within the Roman Empire that is to rule for 1260 years during the dark ages.
5. Saints are included as the subject of the Judgment for Dan 7:22 says "Judgment was passed in favor of the saints" NASB.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You can see the same thing as what was posted in my previous post above - just by paying attention to the highlights here "in the text".
The pre-advent Judgment of Dan 7 - based on
investigating the records/books of heaven.
Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
...
Christ takes part in the Judgment - it is the judgment seat of Christ
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
...
Saints are included as subjects of the Judgment (We must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ)
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
11th horn - dominates for 1260 years (starting shortly after the fall of the pagan Roman empire)
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Judgment takes place after the 1260 years (3.5 years of apocalyptic prophetic time - day for year rule)
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
SECOND Coming
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
The pre-advent Judgment of Dan 7 - based on
investigating the records/books of heaven.
Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
...
Christ takes part in the Judgment - it is the judgment seat of Christ
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
...
Saints are included as subjects of the Judgment (We must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ)
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
11th horn - dominates for 1260 years (starting shortly after the fall of the pagan Roman empire)
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Judgment takes place after the 1260 years (3.5 years of apocalyptic prophetic time - day for year rule)
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
SECOND Coming
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
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You stop here at verse four. Why not read to the end of the chapter where the answer is given? Why? You don't want the answer, that is why!
A random insert from another book. This has nothing to do with it.
The Bible does interpret itself. A question is asked in verse 4 and answered a few verses later; those verses you don't quote because you don't like the answer given.
The Bible didn't stop at verse six. The rest of the OT and the entire NT followed. Why did you stop here? Why not even go to the end of the chapter? You don't want the rest of the answer do you?
I will post again the "rest of the story."
It is quite evident that verses 12-14 cannot be omitted in this chapter. They are the verses that answer the question given in verse 4.
The vitriol like heartburn develops from over-indulgence in your own digestive system, Bob Ryan. Take a Rennies; it is harmless and really helps.
You have too much of other churches' confessions. Stop devouring them; it's more effective than even Rennies.
Despite my differences with Bob Ryan, I must admit the Old and New Testaments are much better witnesses, of much longer lasting witness, are more representative of all God's prophets, and fuller of the Holy Spirit than <<Joshua and Zeruabbabel>> could dream.
Nevertheless I would say the two Words of God are His Anointed, Christ the Anointed of the LORD, and the Scriptures, Old and New Testament without distinction.
Neither of Joshua and Zerubbabel is anywhere called the Anointed of the LORD.
Verse 6 gives the best definition of who the two Witnesses are: "This is the WORD of the LORD ... not by might nor by power but by MY SPIRIT, saith the LORD."
"The Spirit shall witness of Me"
The Scriptures witness of the Word, Christ;
Therefore the two Witnesses -- I would say -- are Jesus Christ and the Scriptures.
Nothing or nobody better fits Revelation's depiction of the Two Witnesses.
Ultimately Zechariah 4:12 gives a figuration of "the Trinity in full fellowship." [Klaas Schilder’ expression; not application]
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I disagree with you here. I do not accept the Dispensational doctrine of last things and have debated with many dispensationalists on this Forum including DHK. I am particularly offender by their doctrine of the "parenthesis Church" which I totally reject. However, I believe the errors of dispensationalism are minor compared to some of the heretical teachings of SDA. I repeat some of these heretical teachings from the OP:
There is nothing that I am aware of in Dispensational theology that even approaches these heretical statements!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In addition it is "by the Word of the Lord" that the plagues, the judgments etc come upon the World that are mentioned in Rev 11.
The "Word of God" is living and active and sharper than a two edged sword.
It is only "the Word of God" that can curse the Earth, call down fire, execute judgment "as often as it wills".
Just more details "from the text"
in Christ,
Bob
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Then why don't you believe the Word of God, that is the Scriptures, when it is so clear in this matter. The fact is that you reject God's Word and believe in a fable instead. EGW is clouding your judgement.
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